Why Can't Christians Agree?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:03] Speaker B: Welcome to the inaugural episode of the Stumble, where we're having meaningful conversations from a Christian perspective about faith, doubt, and how the heck those two things can live together in your life. My name is Sam Tennell. I'm your host. And before we get too far into this, I want to thank the sponsor of today's episode. Emmanuel Fellowship Church in Ellisville, Missouri is the reason this podcast is possible. Emmanuel Fellowship is a church that believes the Gospel of Jesus is good news for all people. Everyone is welcome to come and belong because we believe that Jesus Christ loves us and meets us exactly as we are and loves us enough to make us more than we are. So if you're just joining us or you missed the trailer to this podcast, the premise here is simple. We know that faith is hard. Faith is hard for everyone. It doesn't matter what your spiritual background is, it doesn't matter what your cultural background is. It doesn't matter any of those things. If you are a person who's trying to live with some sense of faith in your core, that's difficult. Faith is hard. And anyone who's living a life of faith will tell you that doubt, and even nagging and painful doubts are a normal part of faith. Faith. And so how do we navigate that? How do we live a life of faith when there is so much or even such specific or intense doubts that can plague us? And so we spent time serving our community here around the St. Louis area, asking people to outline what their specific doubts were. What are the stumbling blocks of things that cause them to have doubts in regards to spirituality in general and Christianity specifically? We turn took the lists from that survey and compiled them into different categories and we're spending time having conversations with some of the thinkers and doers in the faith community here around St. Louis. So in the coming weeks, you're going to see us go through a common a wide range of topics, starting with things like divisions within Christianity or the way Christians mistreat each other, the reality of suffering, the over politicization of faith in American culture. A whole swath of topics we're going to dig into in the coming weeks. This week specifically, we're going to have my conversation with Dr. Aaron Halstadt, who is a professor and pastor here in the St. Louis area. And we're going to dig into talking about the idea of why, if Christianity is true, why there are so many divisions and disagreements, right? If, if there is this core teaching in the Bible that describes what Christianity is, that defines Christianity, why are there so many brands of Christian right Why are there so many different movements and why does it seem like they have really passionate disagreements about stuff? And so we're going to get to that conversation right now and I think you'll be blessed by it. All right, so I am, I'm here with Dr. Aaron Halstad, who is a local pastor here in St. Louis in the Maplewood area at Mid Cities Church. He also serves on the executive committee for our local association Baptist association here. And you also teach at Missouri Baptist University, right? [00:03:42] Speaker A: New Testament and Old Testament. [00:03:44] Speaker B: New Testament and Old Testament. So Doctor, why don't you, why don't you tell us what is your education in? What brought you to St. Louis? Tell us a little bit about Mid Cities and those sorts of things. [00:03:56] Speaker A: Yeah, so my terminal degree is a doctorate in, well, the major's in preaching. So the focus was on looking at preaching, but my minor was in systematic theology. And so the focus on that was really putting together a theology of preaching, looking at the Reformation. As far as what got me here into St. Louis, I had always felt called to ministry, to be a pastor of a local church, continued on getting a lot of the US like a lot of education because back in the day, pastors were the most well educated people in their community or one of the most well educated people in their community and really trying to kind of recapture that vision. And hopefully you have to ask my people if this has borne out in reality, but hopefully try and take some of what can feel like an ivory tower conversation, people talking over people's heads and not really caring about that, but kind of bringing that down in a way that anyone, really, anyone can understand. As far as Mid Cities goes as a church, we've got ties back into our community back to 1892. We, the two congregations merged in 2019 to form what is Mid Cities right now. But one half of that merge was a church that's existed here in, in Maplewood in the St. Louis area since 1892. And we're just trying to reach our community with the gospel and be a gospel witness and a gospel presence here and just taking it one step at a time. [00:05:38] Speaker B: Come on, dude, I'll tell you just so I've, I've known you, Aaron, for, for several years since you moved here to St. Louis. And I gotta say, I, I, I actually, I've never heard you, I don't think articulate that particular angle on your understanding of your calling. And I gotta tell you man, that is my experience of you as a friend and a pastor is that you are, you are intelligent you are wise, you are educated. And as someone who is in the ministry, but less educated than you, I feel like you do such a good job of that. You invite me into the deep waters, as it were, in a way that is really welcoming. [00:06:14] Speaker A: And so I appreciate that. I'm. I'm glad that translates because it's. Yeah, I just. We appreciate that. [00:06:22] Speaker B: So I told you, kind of the premise for this whole thing is we're, we're going through these, these lists of doubts that people have expressed about Christianity. And that's kind of a weird way to say it. You know, we. We surveyed our actual community around St. Louis and, and had people just list out what are, what are things that cause you doubt with regard to spirituality in general and with regard to Christianity specifically. And I think one of the big things I've been coming back to exploring this whole project is just this fact that faith for pretty much everybody is hard. Faith is difficult, and doubts and struggles and questions are like a normal part of a life of faith and an experience of faith. And so we took time collating together these different, to use maybe the biblical phrase, use, different stumbling blocks that people. [00:07:17] Speaker A: Have for their faith. [00:07:18] Speaker B: And one of the ones that came up really often was this idea about denominational divisions and differing biblical interpretations, right. Kind of, kind of basically saying, like, it seems like Christianity is so insanely splintered, right? If. If even the Christians can't agree on the Bible, on doctrine, on beliefs, like, why would we expect anyone to think that's actually true? Any. Just. Like, I know that's. I know this is really broad, but just kind of starting it, like, what's your initial gut reaction to hearing that doubt expressed? Does that match your own experience personally or in ministry or anything like that? [00:08:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that that is. It's a big question. I think it's something that I think a lot of people wrestle with, and frankly, I, I understand. I understand why that would be something that causes people doubt or be. Or be an objection to why they have question Christianity or, or the claims of Christ. As I was thinking about it a little bit more, though, what came to mind, right, is there's a verse, right, and it's Acts 1:8, where Jesus is. It's. It's after his resurrection, he's giving kind of these final, final charges to, to his disciples. And we in the church, right, we use this Acts 1:8, to talk about the need to, to spread the gospel, the need to engage in missions and evangelism. He tells his disciples, you will be my witnesses first in Jerusalem and then spreading out to the regions that are around there. And then he says, to the ends of the earth. But the reason why that, that verse came to mind is that even with all of the differences of opinion and interpretation and, and things of that, things of that nature, what Christianity is at its core is a relationship to this figure, Jesus Christ. And when he is leaving the world, about to ascend to the Father, go back to heaven. If you want to think of it in, in that way, yeah, he calls his disciples witnesses. And what a witness is, right? It's, it's, it's someone who simply just speaks about what they've seen, what they've heard, what they've experienced. And so like, I don't want to minimize these things that are causing people's doubts or leading to confusion or questions like, those things are big, those are big issues. But fundamentally, at its core, hopefully, when someone is interacting with a Christian, a believer, a disciple of Jesus, they're interacting with someone who has an experience, who has a personal connection to the risen Christ, something that has, has changed their life. No, they haven't seen or heard the physical Jesus, but they, they have something in their life that is attributable to, to having this connection with Christ. And so you have to explain that in some way. Like, there's a host of other questions, there's a host of other things that need to be picked apart and peeled back. I don't want to minimize that at all. But if you've encountered someone who is able to say, right, like, this is what my life was like before knowing this person that everyone else in the world says is dead was not actually alive, but encountering him and believing that he is alive and this is the change that he has made in my life. Maybe you don't agree with their particular assessment on how that change happened, but you have to account for it in some way. Something has happened in their life experience. And I think that's, that's where the, that's where the fun comes in, is exploring with them, like, why what happened. Tell, tell me about that experience and, and why this change has happened. [00:11:20] Speaker B: I, I, I love that idea, man. And I know you're not, you're sharing that as kind of like a, maybe a broader context for our conversation because, because it doesn't like, dismiss people's real doubts. And Christianity does make specific historic claims that are either, you know, based on reality or not. And, and those are, those are valid things that we can and should explore with folk. But it's man it's such a good reminder at the outset. It makes me think of just people in my own church who might be struggling with their own doubts to go, hey, listen, explore this stuff, think through it, let your brain follow this stuff through, but don't forget what it is, that it's actually at the core of your faith. It's not that you have worked out some cool intellectual treatise and built this progression of thought that is perfectly logical and reasonable. It's that you have met someone and that person has affected you. That's a really good reminder, man. I appreciate a lot to circle us back though, thinking through the fact that Christianity does make specific claims, and not just claims that are abstract or spiritual, but like historical claims. [00:12:41] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:12:43] Speaker B: We do see different interpretations, different convictions of even like, fundamental biblical concepts. Can you maybe give us some examples of areas where Christians tend, agree, tend to disagree and maybe, you know, give us a couple of the, maybe the more famous case studies and then maybe why those disagreements arise? [00:13:08] Speaker A: Yeah. So to answer the first part of, of that question, some of the terminology that's kind of been used in, in our broader Baptist context is this, this concept of doctrinal triage. And you think about it in terms of like, if you were to be admitted into the er, you know, you're not. You don't get seen back just in the order that you came into the emergency room. Right. Like, there's someone, an intake nurse or someone who is making some decisions on what is the priority level on what we're dealing with here. And so some of the examples that I've used with my people, right, is that like, if, if you come into the ER and you have a sprained ankle, you are not going to get bumped up ahead of someone who has a gunshot. W. Right. That's just not going to happen. There's something that's more threatening to there. And so when you apply that concept of triage to these claims about what Scripture teaches, there are things that, and we'll probably unpack more of this later on in our conversation. But you have things that are primary issues, right? Like these are things that if we don't hold to these things, whatever we are, we are not Christian. These are things about, you know, the nature of God, Trinity, the resurrection, the physical, literal, bodily resurrection of Jesus, that Jesus is holy God, holy man. There are certain things that to. To depart from these things means that we're. We're in a territory that cannot be historically or biblically defined as Christian. Your question, though, focuses in, on things beyond that Right. So there, there are things that are, that are of secondary importance and maybe even are tertiary or third order importance. And so here's some examples of that would be, I would think in a secondary way. These are things that we can disagree on. And I can still affirm that other person as a Christian, as a believer, but it may not be a good idea for us to do church together. The classic example that I can think of is baptism. Right. As, yeah, as Baptists. We say as Baptist, that's one of our big ones. Yeah, yeah, that's what we're named. Right. Like we say that only, only a professing believer can be baptized. There are other churches, other denominations, other traditions that would baptize infants. I can affirm believers in those other traditions or in those other denominations and say, you're my brother, you're my sister. But if we were to plant a church together, at some point someone's going to want to baptize their baby. What do we do? Right. So in cases like that, it's not so much we're saying, you're not a Christian, it's saying for the good of the unity of our particular local church and just good church order, it may not be a good idea for us to function as a church together, but then there are other things that are, you know, we should be able to agree to disagree and exist not just in the same community, but in the same, in the same local church. I think of like your end times, your end times view is the millennial reign of Jesus literally a thousand years. Is there going to be a secret rapture? You know, like people have very strong opinions on that and I think the Bible teaches to those things. But on something like that, you know, at the end of the day, he's going to come back. However it works out, every Christian throughout all of history has said Jesus will return. The specifics of that we may debate, but we know that he's going to return. We should be able to exist within the same church with differing opinions on that and be able to hold to those, those opinions loosely. It's not to say that these things are unimportant. Right. If the Bible speaks to it, we want to understand it rightly. But we do have to make sure that we're understanding what this particular teaching is. Yeah. And then how does that relate to just Christianity as a Christianity as a whole? How important is it? Is it a gunshot wound, is it a sprained ankle, that kind of a thing? [00:17:33] Speaker B: We've used the phrase at Emmanuel of open handed Doctrines and closed handed doctrines or brutes. Right. The things where we go, hey, this one we're holding on too tight and if you're not synced up with us on this, we can't affirm that we're talking about the same faith, but these other ones. And I think it's even interesting, right. Christians are, Christians tend to acknowledge these secondary doctrines, these open ended doctrines, acknowledge that they're not primary. [00:18:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:07] Speaker B: I don't know personally any Christians who would tell me who would disagree with my conviction on baptism, but tell me that's a matter of salvation or not salvation of Christian or not Christian. I may exist, but I haven't met him. [00:18:22] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:23] Speaker B: And yet at the same time we hold those convictions with like actual passion. [00:18:30] Speaker A: Right? [00:18:31] Speaker B: Like it's, it's a conviction. It's not something that. [00:18:34] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:34] Speaker B: That is light, but it's something that we can somehow find a way to be excited about or passionate about and still realize. Well, yeah, but it's not primary, you know. [00:18:46] Speaker A: Right, right, right. [00:18:49] Speaker B: It makes me think of just. [00:18:51] Speaker A: Well, it's okay. [00:18:52] Speaker B: So there's a quote that's been popping in my head as you've been talking and I don't know the quote and so I was hesitant to share it. [00:19:00] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:00] Speaker B: But then I'm like, yeah, I'm sure someone will google this and get me on it. I've heard this before attributed to the time around the Reformation and in this critique from the Roman Catholic Church, the Protestants of like, you know, if you splinter the church, it will never stop splintering. It'll keep splintering on. I don't know who said that or if that's a real historical quote, but I've heard it associated with that period and to some extent, hey, you did your PhD on the Reformation, so you probably know if that's a real quote. [00:19:34] Speaker A: I have not been able. I haven't seen like, I've heard that before. I don't know, I think it's an apocryphal thing. You know, someone on the side said that to Luther or something. [00:19:43] Speaker B: But yeah, well, regardless, I mean, that is kind of how it's turned out, right? Like there are so many Christian movements, so many different flavors of Christianity and at least from the outside looking in, they do seem really different. What I'm hearing you say is, hey, listen, at a core level, Christians, Christians, Christian. But what's interesting about that is I think folk who aren't already in the Christian tradition probably don't necessarily see that. It makes me think of when right before I Got married. Like in that. Those last few months of my engagement, I had a season where I was working at this family owned restaurant and it was a family of brand new to the country immigrants who owned this small restaurant. And they were, they were from China. And I remember one night I was cleaning in the kitchen with the husband and we're mopping together and cleaning and he just goes, so you're a Christian, right? And I go, yeah. And he goes, so do you worship Jesus or Jesus's mom? And that was like, that was 100% of his understanding of Christianity at that point. There's two types. There's the ones who worship Jesus and the one who worship Jesus, Mom. And as someone who's, you know, speaking as an insider, it was funny to me, but I thought back on that story in the years since then, I was going, man, like, what an interesting window into an outsider's understanding of the diversity of Christian expression. Why do you think there are so many denominations and what do you think has contributed to that diversity? [00:21:29] Speaker A: I think this is just kind of my personal opinion with my understanding of church history and the doctrinal involvement that were, that were talked about and discussed from an, from an insider perspective there, I think there were very real reasons for Christian, When I say real, real and important reasons for the Christian movement to divide probably two, the two best examples I can think of where early, early on in the history of the church, you had a, a pastor who got on people's radar who started saying that Jesus was a created being, that, that yes, he was a man and he was godlike, but this godlike part or aspect of who he is was created at some point. And the rest of the church went, well, that's not actually what we believe. I'm oversimplifying here, but I think in that instance here you have someone who's making a claim about who Jesus is and the rest of the church sees that and responds to that and goes, well, that's not what we believe. Like, you believe something about Jesus, but not rightly. This is not Christianity as we know it. And that was a real and important reason to make a distinction. I think of the Protestant Reformation too. There's been some changes in Catholic theology since then. But in medieval Catholic theology, right, like you become saved, you have a right relationship with God through doing these things. Or at least that's how the popular, the, you know, the popular common person on the street understood it. That's what they were taught by priests and traveling preachers. And so the Protestant Reformation came About. Because, like, no, when you look at scripture, that is, Scripture actually says the opposite on how you relate to God, that it's not through things that you do. It's through recognizing God loves you and is graciously inviting you to have relationship with him. So that's an important reason to go, okay, this is not Christianity as defined in the Bible, and we need to make a distinction. Obviously, someone from the outside can look at that, and not knowing all the nuances of these conversations, it's going to be really confusing to them. But for those of us on the inside, we have to recognize, like, no, there's. There's some very real reasons why the movement has been splintered. Beyond that, though, I think we have to be honest as believers and say some of, some of the, some of the reasons why we've splintered just aren't really good reasons. Yes. I, I don't. I don't know. I don't. I don't know who this guy is other than. I've just, I've seen this clip, but there was like a, A comedian, I think his name was Emo Phillips or something like that. I don't know anything about him other than this one clip that I have seen of a standup thing about where he was saying he was on the plane with someone. It's like, oh, are you a Christian? Oh, yes, I am. Are you a. Are you Eastern or Western? I'm Western. Oh, me too. Are you Protestant or Catholic? Oh, I'm Protestant. Oh, me too. And he's asking all those questions and it gets down to like, well, are you Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist? I'm Southern Baptist. Are you Wisconsin, you know, east or Wisconsin West? Oh, I'm west. And like, just very, very granular and whatever. The last question was, his parent was that this person that he's sitting next to answers the wrong way and he responds with woven die heretic. And I think that's sometimes how people perceive how we sometimes, as believers, talk with one another, speak with one another, and we just have to be honest. We're following people. And unfortunately, yes, that is part of our story. There were times when the movie splintered for good reasons. Yes. Yeah. [00:25:34] Speaker B: People perceive it that way, but it's also happened that way. [00:25:39] Speaker A: Yeah. And we just have to be honest about that and just be like, yeah. And I think a lot of times people's. I'm. This may be an overgeneralization, but I think a lot of people's reasons why, you know, Christianity is splintered and fractured. Yeah, you're going to find those people that like you were saying this guy in your experience, like, are you the kind that worships Jesus or worships his mom? But there are others. I think too that it's, it's not so much these bigger, larger theological questions. It's seeing Christians relate to one another, people who are claiming the name of Jesus and, and they're seeing that personal relationship or that, that particular local church fighting over something that in the grand scheme of things is not part of the core of Christianity. And that's unfortunate and we just need to own up to that and say like, yeah, yeah, that's. That that has happened and if necessary, if I apologize and ask forgiveness for that. I didn't. Trying to cover that up and paper that up. People, people see through that. And you. We can't just make every fight that has ever been had like this was test of orthodoxy. In some cases it was. But we have to, but you have to be honest and say, well, not every fight that was had was to that level. [00:27:00] Speaker B: And I think the unfortunate thing is because what you do was just perfect. You know, 2,000 years of church history and you pulled out a couple instances of, I mean, real fork in the road, Christian versus not Christian, super destructive doctrine that had to be addressed. But 2000 years. Right, right. Most of these, I feel like most of the things that we divide over really just aren't even close to that level of importance. And some of the divisions are totally amicable. Right. Like you used the example earlier of baptism. And the vast majority of Baptists and Presbyterians look at each other and see the way they do their baptism different and they laugh about it. They stand on that conviction and they're going to baptize in their own families the way they're going to. But they don't, you know, they don't hate that other church or whatever. But some of the stuff we divide over, man, it really is, it is just petty and destructive and it looks really bad. Looks really bad when you see it from the outside looking in. [00:28:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:17] Speaker B: Or even from the important. [00:28:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I think the important thing to remember is, is that like that that concept is not, it's not alien to the pages of Scripture. Yeah. Even. Even in the pages of scripture, God speaks to his people and saying, know there is a righteous remnant. And what I mean by that is if you, in the Old Testament, you, you look at Israel and from the out, from the outside perspective, these are God's people. Right. This is who he has chosen. And yet when you come and get an insider perspective. You recognize, oh, there's lots of these things going on that God's people should not be a part of and should not be doing. Yet God, through his prophets, says there is a remnant. There is a group of people within this that are true, that are mine, that are. That do belong to me, that I am preserving, that I am working through. And so I think that's something that to kind of hold on to as well, is that whether we're looking from the inside or we're looking from the outside, it looks like a lot of mess. But throughout, for thousands of years, right, that is unfortunately been the case. But yet God has said, like, but I'm still, I still have my hand on a group of people that belong to me that are mine, that I'm going to use. We may not always get it right on who exactly those people are, but that doesn't change the fact that from God's perspective, He knows. He knows them, he knows his church, he knows his flock, and he's. He's doing work with, with them. So. [00:29:58] Speaker B: Talk to me about this, because I love that answer. What I'm thinking about as we talk about this is these differences, these divisions, they come up and they don't come up for no reason. And like you said, we even have precedent for this in Scripture. There are stories in Scripture of God's people arguing and having different convictions and trying to figure stuff out, whether it's, you know, Israel and Judah trying to figure out the right place to worship or the, the early church in Acts struggling with just how Jewish do you have to be to be a Christian? These things, these differences, these real challenges, these real convictional issues come up. And so at the end of the day, how do we figure it out when questions of conviction, when conflict arises over right belief in faith, what, what are the actual tools in front of people of faith to discern and figure out to make sure they've got it right? [00:31:03] Speaker A: I think from the very, the very beginning it requires a certain posture. Because the reality is that if you, if you come to Scripture, like, like the example that I give to students in my New Testament class, for example, that if we approach Scripture as if it's something that we can put under the microscope and dissect and completely be over and above it and think that when we get to the end result of whatever it is that we're trying to get to the right answer to a particular question, a theological system, whatever the case is, that's actually the wrong approach to Scripture. That's not to say it doesn't have answers to questions. That's not to say it doesn't. That it doesn't provide some sort of. It doesn't provide doctrine. But we have to approach it humbly because I think the reality is that a lot of times we come to Scripture, and I don't think any of us as believers would say this, but the way that we sometimes call, operate as if, if I just use the right tools in the right way or in the right sequence, then I will completely master what this thing has to say. Rather than recognizing God is true. Jesus said I am the truth. And he's preserved these things in Scripture and it is infallible, it is inerrant. That does not mean that I am, though. And so it requires from the very beginning some humility in saying, you know, I believe what I believe because I think it's right, otherwise I wouldn't believe it. Right. But there has to be a humility in growth. But there are things that I could be wrong on and I'm willing to interact more with Scripture, use those good tools and use those good resources time to hopefully refine my understanding. But we have to, I think, approach it from that perspective from the very, very beginning. [00:33:11] Speaker B: I think you're tapping into something that is so fundamental here and whether someone is approaching this from the perspective of being a believer and being within the church and thinking about these things, or someone who's approaching it from outside the church. At the end of the day, Christians define, or at least should define, define our doctrine using Scripture. [00:33:34] Speaker A: Right? [00:33:34] Speaker B: Like we have the Bible and we believe the Bible is this inspired, preserved, supernatural work that God has given us to reveal himself to us. Right. And so like there's almost this hyper simplistic answer of going, okay, well, if you've got the book and you believe God said it, there shouldn't be any argument. You should be able to look at the book and just go, that's our stuff, and then move on. But the reality is that's not how human hearts and minds work. We are complex and we are flawed and we're all coming to this same source of authority, the Word. And I think in good faith, most Christians are addressing the Word and doing their best. But the Bible is complex. The Bible is, if I'm being honest, oftentimes confusing. And you add in all our human weaknesses and all our human biases and there's just man. There's no such thing as a completely objective reading of the Bible. [00:34:43] Speaker A: Right? Right. [00:34:45] Speaker B: And so it makes sense that Even in unity, even in good faith, Christians approaching this unifying same text are still going to walk away going, huh, I'm not so sure or huh, I think. [00:34:58] Speaker A: You'Re wrong about that. Right? The as you're Talking, the theologian N.T. wright has this illustration in one of his books where he talks about a lot of times, kind of like what you were saying. We understand that when I come to the text of scripture, we picture it in our minds almost as if it is just me and this book and that is how we are reading it. And his illustration goes, that's really an over simplistic understanding of what we're actually doing. He's British, so he uses the word spectacles instead of glasses. But he's like, we're actually. It's not just me and the book, it's me and the book and I'm wearing some spectacles that either help or hurt my ability to read. And there's a variety of our country of origin, our family, whether or not we've had access to the scripture or not. There's all kinds of things that just shape our understanding and the presuppositions that we believe. So we're wearing a set of glasses. Whether we realize it or not when we come to Scripture. That's not to say that there isn't objective meaning or truth in the book. It just means that our vision may be clouded. And we have to recognize that. On top of that, he would say that, you know, we also have to recognize that we are not just reading the book in isolation, we're reading the book in a library. We are approaching this with other, other books, other voices, other things that we have read that have shaped our understanding that we bring to the text as well. Some of those things are helpful, some of those things aren't. Some of those things are written by faithful believers. Some of those books were not written by believers. But we just have to recognize like there are other. It's not just me coming to the text, it's everyone that has shaped who I am filtered through me coming to the text. And then on top of that, we're reading this with our glasses on in the library and we're sitting next to a window, which means that every now and then we're going to look up from what we're reading and we're going to look out the window and there's a world happening out there and that is going to color that's going to influence how we, how then we read the text because we come to scripture with our questions with our understanding, we look at what's happening in the world, or this, you know, someone asked us this question or whatever, and we go to the text trying to find what the answer is to that question. And it may be a valid question, but it may not be the question that Scripture seeks to answer. Yeah. So we have to recognize too that like, again, that's not to say there's not objective meaning or objective truth that's there. We just have to be honest about. I'm coming to it on my own terms, and it may be coming to me on a different set of terms, which is why I think humility is so important. Because if I just try and take my own presuppositions and assumptions and all of this and try and read it through that lens, I'm not going to come to the end of things in the right way. I have to, as much as possible, let it master me. Trying to understand what questions is it asking, what presuppositions does it have? What's the window? What was going on in the world when it was written? And have that shape my understanding as much as possible. [00:38:24] Speaker B: Aaron, that's so good. Do this for me. Because my fear as we're talking about this is that I feel like someone's going to hear that and they're going to go. It's going to click and they're going to go. That makes so much sense. Yes, of course. I'm bringing all this complexity into my reading and my understanding with me, and so is everyone else. And I heard you say, right. That doesn't mean there's not an objective reading. That doesn't mean there's not objective truth. But I feel that someone's going to hear that and go, cool, But I have no concept how to actually get to that reading in that truth. [00:39:04] Speaker A: Right. [00:39:05] Speaker B: And the idea that we have all these Christians who in good faith are reading the same text and coming to wildly different conclusions about stuff. Right. So. So what can someone actually do to trust their reading of the Bible and their search for convictional truth out of it? [00:39:27] Speaker A: Yeah. This may not be. This may not be the answer you were expecting, but it is the answer I'm going to give. Learn the Apostles Creed. Yeah. Here's why I say that. Even in the ancient church. Right. The historical claims of Christianity happening in the very early first century A.D. so, you know, roughly around the 30s, then other new Testament books being written in the, in the 50s and 60s, 70s. So when I say the ancient church, I mean like in the 100s, the 200s, the 300s, they would talk. They, they recognize the same problem. Even in that short amount. I mean, a short amount of time between the events as they happen and where they were, just a few, few decades, and they go, okay, there's. Even then, there are things that we disagree on, but there's this common thread mentioned in a lot of very influential pastors and theologians and writers whose writings we still have, who. They would talk about something called the rule of faith. And they don't mean rule as in, like, this is something that you do or don't do. They mean a standard. And so they would, they would recognize, they would say, like, even though there's all these differences of opinion, there is a common thread that unites all of this together that they would call the rule of faith. Now, the way that, that is fleshed out, the way that it's fleshed out is not exactly the same across the board. Different people would talk about different things, but there's still a basic understanding that most people at this time talked about and would walk away with. And that is reflected in the, the first four or so ecumenical creeds, the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Constantinian, Nicene, Constantinian, the Chalcedonian Creed. And so some people may be like, okay, what, what are those? You can Google that. Yeah, you can, you can google Nicene Creed, Apostles Creed. But those are what, what the ancient church formulated as early statements of faith, early confessions of faith, and said there are differences of opinion, but these are the things that we, that, that we recognize. Scripture teaches this. And to go beyond the bounds of this means that you are not a Christian. What's very interesting to me about in all of that, right, Like, I've, I've been in the Sunday school class here at Mid Cities, walking through the Apostles Creed. It's probably the, it's the earliest and shortest of them. It starts off with, I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Creator of Heaven and Head of heaven and earth. And then I believe in Jesus Christ is only. And has all these things about Jesus, it all centers in on Jesus. And then the other creeds just expand expand upon that. It's all about, what was he doing on the. What was he doing on the cross? How do you actually relate to who God is? Who is God? How are you saved? Who is this Jesus person? What's not in there is, how are you baptized? What's not in there is how will Jesus come back? Now it does say who ascended to heaven from whence or from where he will come to judge the living and the dead. We recognize he is going to come back and he's going to do certain things, but the timeline is not exactly spelled out. I don't know that was intentional in the ancient church, and there's obviously some differences of opinion on that. As a Baptist, I have very firm convictions on what I believe Scripture teaches about baptism. I have opinions and convictions on how I think the end times are going to play out. But even in the ancient church, there is a recognition. There are things that we can. That we can disagree on and they recognize. But these things, these truths, these doctrines, this is. This is the standard of what it means to be part of the church, to be. To be a believer. And they would use that standard, they would use that rule to say, this is. This is the boundary that keeps us in place. Now, these. These truths, these doctrines are derived from Scripture. Scripture is the ultimate authority. It's a summary. These creeds are a summary of what Scripture teaches about what the Gospel is and who God is and how we relate to him. But then they would use that rule and that standard to say, if we are reading the text in such a way that now we are in contradiction to this rule, we've gone wrong somewhere and we need to back up and do some more digging and trade more for the Spirit to lead us in the right direction. That may seem circular to some people, and I don't want to open up a whole nother can of worms with that. But, like, I think that's helpful for us to recognize that even in the first few decades here, there's a recognition there are some things that we can disagree on. We have to form the. Recognize that these boundaries exist, exist, and to be inside of that and safe, and to go beyond that, we're going off in a direction that is not true, that is not right, and that is not good. So I. [00:44:48] Speaker B: It's funny because you said you weren't sure if I'd like that answer. I was hoping that was the direction. [00:44:53] Speaker A: You were going to go. [00:44:54] Speaker B: I think the creeds, especially the historic ones like this, they. They do, exactly. I mean, it's. It's guard. It's. It's the bumper rails at the bowling alley, right? Like, they help give us some guardrails when we're exploring scripture to let us know, hey, like Christians, we're not the first people to explore the Bible and wonder why there's different convictions and why the Bible's complex and how this stuff works out. Brothers and sisters in Christ who've come before Us have spent a ton of time praying and deliberating over this stuff, and we can benefit from their work. I mean, you know, it's summer 2025 is we're recording this, which means we're coming up on, what is it? The 1700 year birthday of the Nicene Creed. Is that right? 1700 years? [00:45:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:45:49] Speaker B: How stinking cool is that to think that for 1700 years, Christians have been pretty unified on what the core doctrines of what makes someone Christian or not Christian actually are. It makes me think of. I'm sure you've heard this before, but C.S. lewis, the English apologist, has this whole deal on chronological snobbery. If you write him talking about that. It's this idea that when we read a diversity of opinions across cultural lines and across time, it's helpful for us because we tend to assume contemporaries. The way we think about the world is the best way to think about the world. But when we read stuff that's old, we're reading people who don't have the same cultural blinders we do and the same cultural blind spots. And so it's easier for us to see their blind spots, but it's easier for them as writers to call ours out. And so when we look at these creeds that are 1700 years old, man, there's something about that that can cut through some of the cultural fuzz that makes it difficult for us to navigate the scripture. I think the creeds are one of the best starting places for whether you're in the church or outside of the church of going, man, I really just want to get down to some basics of what is core Christianity, what actually unites Christians? What is it that unites the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox and the evangelical megachurch? What is it that actually draws them together? The creeds help you get there. They help you see what is really at the core of this thing. So to me, that brings up then this question that I really would love to just hear you kind of speak to. So if someone is exploring Christianity, whether from the outside and they're kicking the tires, or they've grown up in the church and have a faith, but they're wrestling through this stuff. Like, how would you suggest practically that someone actually navigate the reality of denominational disagreements, Right? Like, how does someone find a church or faith tradition that they can feel confident about the core beliefs, but has traditions and practices that. That still resonate with them in their convictions? [00:48:24] Speaker A: I would say, like you. Like you said, find for those creeds, because that's going to Tell you what the commonality is and be able to help you identify. Okay, if, and it's not to say that like you know, if you were to go on like Mid City's website and look at what we believe so we don't say on there, you know, we believe in the Apostles Creed, we believe in the Nicene Creeds and some cultures do that and that's helpful. But I think having an understanding of okay, these are what the creeds say. This, this is what all Christians everywhere have believed. When you check out a church's website, that's probably the easiest way to check find out do they have a statement of faith and read that statement of faith and find and be able to see these are where the commonalities match up onto. That's not going to tell you everything about what that church believes. But actually just recognizing churches belief is and they should be open about what they believe. And so do do a little bit of an investigation and do a little bit of homework and be like okay, do they have a beliefs page on their website? Do they have somewhere where we can navigate to their statement of faith? If they don't, to me that would be a red flag. Or if it's buried somewhere and not able to, to be gotten to very easily, that to me that would be, that would be a red flag. So I would say if you're trying to, to find that, see, see their statement of faith, what is it that they say that we believe? It's not going to tell you everything but it is going to start the conversation and then say, you know, like this is what we hold to or what we believe to be important. Beyond that, you're going to have to talk to the leadership of that church. You're going to have to talk to the people of that church because like I said, that statement of faith is going to inform your like your understanding of what that church confesses together, what we believe and what we find to be important. But you're going to have to have conversations with folks at that church to figure out beyond that, how firmly do they hold to that, how loosely do they hold to that. So like as, as an example at Mid Cities we are a, the term I use is we are a Baptistic church. And I use that term because we have a lot of people we hold to Baptist distinctives. We are Baptist in doctrine. We have people a part of our congregation though that come outside of the Baptist tradition. Former Catholics, former Nazarenes, former Methodists, former. I was just non denominational, whatever. I didn't really know. And so we've had to really do some assessment and look at this is what makes Christian a Christian. These are the things that we have to have in place in order to function together as a church. But then beyond that, we hold to a lot of things loosely because of the makeup of who we are. Not every church functions that way. And so you're going to have to have some conversations with folks, I think the pastors or the elders, the leadership. There is a good place to start. Be like, okay, just start. Maybe you don't know the questions to ask. What is your take on this, that or the other. But the question of. So I read the Statement of faith, is there anything else that your church holds a belief or a doctrine that hold that we hold very, very dear? Like what is some of that? Just begin, begin that conversation. The other thing, the last thing I would say on that is at some point it's kind of, you know, that's everything that I just described. You're going to have to, it's going to take time. You're not going to learn all of that in one visit on a Sunday, right? It's going to take a little bit of time. Yeah. But I say the last thing that I would say though is at some point you're going to have to commit because the perfect church does not exist. Right. Mercedes is not a perfect church. Emmanuel is not a perfect church. Whatever boxes you have, these are the things that I'm looking for. Some of those boxes are probably perfectly legitimate and important, but not every box will be checked. And so at some point you're going to have to commit. Is this church preaching the gospel? Is this church a Christian church? If you know enough to say, like, I know that I fit within this tradition, Presbyterian, Baptist, Pentecost, whatever. Do, do they hold to those, to those things in a way that, that, that makes, that makes sense and make them true to that tradition. But at some point you're, you're going to have to commit other. Or, or you're not, you're not going to benefit from being a part of the church community. And there are going to be some things where you're just going to have to go, you know what, it's okay to disagree on this. The pastor believes in a rapture and I don't. Okay, you can exist within that church and grow and be discipled or whatever the case may be. Right. Like, you're going to have to realize at some point not all my boxes are going to be checked. And that's Okay. I can grow and be stretched here and be discipled and be conformed more in the image of Christ. [00:53:36] Speaker B: I'll tell you man, I feel like that's one of the most, to me encouraging aspects of this entire conversation is that it's just this piece of going. I don't have to be discouraged by divisions within Christianity. They're interesting, we should explore them. We should work through our own convictions and those things. But at the end of the day, if we're within this realm, this stream that is historical Christianity, then we can have unity in the midst of differences. We can be in loving, joyful, life changing fellowship with people who we disagree on some of these secondary or tertiary things. And that's to me, there's so much freedom in that, there's so much freedom in that to just go, hey, like find a church that preaches the gospel and is life giving. And you know what, you may be the squeaky wheel on some facet of that church. And that's okay, that's okay. It doesn't hurt anything. I, I, I love that man. That, that's, that is encouraging to me. [00:54:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I think at the end of the day we have to remember this is a, this is a verse that, that I'm, I know you've, we've been in the same meetings and rooms sometimes, right? Like I know we've, this verse gets, gets passed around a lot. But the, the Matthew 16:18 where Jesus says, you know, talking about the confession of who he is as the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the living God, he's like on this rock, on this confession, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not overcome it. I think it's important to have that in mind that he Jesus is saying I will build my church. That ultimately the confession of who he is, who Jesus is, that, that is, that is where the foundation is, is our faith rests on Jesus, not ultimately on the institutional church. The institutional church is important, right? I, I'm the pastor of corner, I'm part of it. I, I'll, I'll, I'll fight for it. Right. I think it's important. But at the end of the day my, my faith, my salvation, my confidence in this world is not, does not rest on mid cities, does not rest on any local church of denomination. I think those things are important and traditions are helpful. But ultimately at the end of the day my, my confidence and my security and my faith rests on Jesus. He is building that foundation. He is building his church upon it. I may, we may add Some things to that, that may or may not need to be there, but he's going to set it all right. And I just have to have faith in that, that he knows who are his. He knows whose are his. He will bring his people to himself. He's the one who keeps and sustains me. My brothers and sisters in the church are so necessary for my growth, my development, and for my discipleship. And they can speak on his behalf in some cases, but ultimately my security does not rest on them. It rests on Jesus. Come on, man. [00:56:51] Speaker B: What a, What a brilliant way to just tap this idea together because it goes back to where we started. We're not trying to dismiss this. This is a, It's a real stumbling block. But I think the answer to it, like you just tapped into the answer, hey, there are differences in denominations. They are weird, they can be confusing, they can be important. You should dig into them. You should know what is and isn't Christianity. But at the end of the day, the Christian faith is about Christ. It is about Jesus and your connection to him. [00:57:27] Speaker A: Right. [00:57:27] Speaker B: And that's just going to be more powerful than what denominational sign on the denomination named is in the church sign. That's just going to have more impact and more staying power in your faith than any of the rest of us. [00:57:43] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:57:44] Speaker B: A lot of encouragement in that. Aaron, this is good for my soul, man. You are encouraging me in my own faith. Any closing thoughts you would give to our folk who are wrestling through these questions? [00:58:01] Speaker A: Yes. This is something that. Not to dismiss confusion, not to dismiss doubt, not to dismiss hurt. But maybe the, the church caused this is. Those are separate conversations and we're only dealing with one particular, one particular doubt or question. I, I read the New Testament and I see so often this phrase, this image of the body of Christ being used to describe. Describe the church. Yeah. Romans 12, 1st Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4 and 5, Colossians 1 and 2. It's mentioned all over the place because it's so important. And the reason why it's so important is that again, everything that we just said, your faith does not rest on the institutional church. It rests on Jesus. But that faith was never meant to be lived in isolation and apart from a local gathering of believers. Like when you see a hand lying on the side of the road not connected to a body, I hope you've never seen that, but if you were, you know something is wrong. Yes, it's disconnected. It's disconnected from the rest of its. Rest of its makeup. And it is not Going to live and it is not going to throw. Right? And so, yes, at the end of the day, your faith rests on Jesus. But this is meant to be lived in community. You need, you need the family of God speaking into your life. You need to be relationship into the body to be disconnected from the body. You may think you, you're going to be able to truck along for a while. Yeah, that's true. A chicken with its head cut off is going to run around for a hot minute, right? But you have to be connected to the body in order to be sustained, grow to function in the way that you were meant to. It's hard sometimes it's messy, sometimes it's confusing, sometimes it's Pastor, I don't want to dismiss that in any way, shape or form, but it is so important for us to. Like I said before, like, at some point you have to commit. At some point we have to jump in feet first and go, this is where I'm going to plant. This is where I'm going to root myself and be nourished by. There may be legitimate reasons to move on or what, whatever the case may be, but at some point, you know, Jesus meant for this to be lived in community and with others. And if my faith rests on him and if he is who he says that he is, and I believe him to be that, that I have to do what he says. What he said was to link up with a community of brothers and sisters and live together the way of life that he lived for us and patterned for us and that he caught us to do. So it's a tension, it's something to hold and balance. So we don't do that perfectly. Our faith rests on him. But he did tell us to live this thing together. [01:01:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll tell you what, man, and I'm gonna tap onto that a little bit because it's just so good. Like, if you are listening to this and you are someone who is wrestling through this, you're trying, you're hearing this and you're going, okay, yes, I want to take that step. I want to find a faith community. I want to plug in, I want to navigate that. But you're struggling to do that. Reach out, reach out. We would love to help you explore some of your convictions and hopes and help you connect to a faith community so that you can better connect to Christ. At the end of the day, that's what your faith is going to be built on. Aaron, thank you so much for your time, man. I know you're a busy guy. This has been such an encouraging conversation for me. I really appreciate your time. [01:02:01] Speaker A: Thank you, Sam. It's been fun. Rock and roll. [01:02:04] Speaker B: That's that, dude. [01:02:06] Speaker A: Thank you. Awesome. You're welcome. [01:02:12] Speaker C: The ones that we love yes. Hallelujah. They not enough Hallelujah. You have saved us us from the ones that we love Hallelujah. [01:02:36] Speaker B: What a great conversation. I. I don't know about you guys, but, man, that was good for my heart. I felt I. I was surprised by some of the direction that went and I was really challenged and encouraged by that conversation. This is going to do it for us today. Let me really quick remind us of our sponsor, Emmanuel Fellowship Church, who makes this podcast possible. If you want to check them out, they're on all social media platforms as well as Emanuel fellowshipstl.com I also want to thank Travis Teal Page for the use of our theme song family. I actually don't think that song is available online anywhere, but you can still check Travis Out, Travis Steel Page, and the Capital Club on all the major music streaming platforms. That's it, guys. Thanks for hanging out and we will see you again soon. [01:03:27] Speaker C: I've been called man of God the one the blood's washed clean but the biggest step of faith I've taken is saying I don't believe. Well, I'm sorry to say I'm back and I've got some questions for you. If it weren't for that girl, I'd be nowhere near you.