Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to episode two of the Stumble where we're having meaningful conversations from a Christian perspective about faith, doubt, and how the heck those two things can live together in your life. My name is Sam Tennell. I'm your host and before we get too far into this, I do want to take a second and thank the sponsor of today's episode. Emmanuel Fellowship Church in Ellisville, Missouri is the reason we are able to have this podcast. Emmanuel Fellowship is a church that believes the Gospel of Jesus is good news for all people. Everyone is welcome to come and belong because Emmanuel believes that Jesus Christ loves us so much that he meets us exactly where we are and also loves us enough to make us more than we are. If you want to learn more about Emmanuel Fellowship, you can find them on social media as well as YouTube but also directly on their website, Emmanuel Fellowship STL if you're just joining us and don't know the premise of this podcast, it's pretty simple.
We know that faith is hard. Faith is hard for everyone. It doesn't matter what your spiritual background is, it doesn't matter what your cultural background is. None of that stuff stops faith from being difficult. If you're a person who's trying to live with some sense of faith in the core of your person in your life, like you know this to be true.
Doubt and struggle is a normal part of a life of faith. And so how do we actually navigate that? What we're doing here at the Stumble is that we spent time surveying our community here in St. Louis asking this question, what are the doubts that spring up in your life with regards to faith generally in Christianity specifically? And we're taking time to have conversations with some of the doers and thinkers in the faith community here in St. Louis to address some of the specific doubts that came up in that survey. I'm really excited for today's episode. You're going to get to hear my conversation with David Paterka. He is the founder and currently runs when the Saints in Malawi, Africa. He's from St. Louis and spends about four months a year here, but spends the rest of the year in Malawi where When the Saints runs and operates the first and only a trauma informed safe house in counseling center for victims of human trafficking and sexual abuse. Beyond just the ministry to victims of sexual abuse, when the Saints also runs a ministry for perpetrators of abuse. They do group therapy and counseling for men specifically who are struggling around sexually acting out. It's really powerful to see a ministry that is seeking to speak life and healing to both the victims and perpetrators of abuse. That being said, you can consider this your content warning. Right. Like we're going to have some conversations about the realities and sorrows of sexual abuse in the world.
So take that into consideration. But having put that out there, man, I just really believe you are going to be blessed by this conversation. So let's jump straight into it.
I'm here with David Paterka of Win the Saints, a nonprofit that runs out of Malawi, Africa. I don't want to explain it. I'd love, David, for you to tell us a little bit about when the Saints, what this ministry does, what your role is there, maybe some of the background and we can kind of go from there.
[00:03:48] Speaker B: Sounds fantastic. Yeah, we are going into, my wife and I and, and our two little ones, 4 and 2 years old, we're going into our 14th year of ministry.
I'm actually the founder and the director of the ministry and had started it years before meeting my wife Essie. We actually met in Malawi. She's a Kenyan that was sent down to start the second branch of an organization she was working with. And it's what, you know, had our paths crossed in Malawi. But yeah, essentially just the summary of what we do there, you know, right now is three main things. We first started way back in 2011 just showing the Passion of the Christ film village by village, proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus and inviting people up to receive prayer if they would like to. And just wanted to build the foundation of the ministry on the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus. And then slowly, as we were essentially kind of fundraising and doing construction, we have now built and run the first and even to this day only long term trauma counseling, safe home for young girls between the ages of 3 and 15 who have been sexually abused.
And currently we have 96 girls in our year long program. We've had a total of 404 girls come into this program. And so that's kind of the second main aspect of what the ministry does. And then the third one is discipleship with men.
And we actually have 18 different groups of men, a total of 421 men that come together in these 18 different groups just to study, you know, the word of God. And we kind of focus in on Bible passages that talk about what it looks like to be just a man of, you know, that walks in sexual integrity and honors the Lord with her body so that hopefully we can see a sustainable reduction in cases of abuse by seeing the hearts of men be transformed by the gospel. So yeah, that's kind of a Snippet of what when the Saints does in Malawi.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: I love that, man. So I've. David, I've known you a long time. We met when I first came to Red Tree Church, probably wherever that was, 2015, 2016.
And, man, I. As long as I've known you and known about this ministry, it has just been. It has been such a privilege to get to be alongside to see what you guys are doing. Just hearing you explain that bit of a.
A ministry that is actively serving the victims of abuse and the perpetrators, like, bringing hope and healing to both. Dude. Like, I can hardly, like, not weep just thinking about the beauty of that.
For those of you who are listening, I would strongly encourage you, David, in When the Saints is the subject of a documentary called when the Saints that's on Amazon prime. And you can hear that whole introduction story in way more detail. It is worth your time to hear it. It's. It's really stinking powerful.
David, I'm so glad you're taking time to chat with me. You kind of know the. The setup of our podcast and the way we have surveyed people in the St. Louis area about their doubts.
And the doubt I want to tackle with us today is probably the most common one people expressed, at least in our survey, but also, I would say anecdotally, like, this is one of the things that I feel like, as a pastor, comes up in my conversations with people a lot, and it's just in regards to human suffering and evil in the world. Right. And so this could be phrased a lot of different ways, but essentially the question is, you know, how can we reconcile how the Bible describes God as both sovereign and good with the sheer amount and kind of suffering and evil that we see, see in this world. Right. You might hear people say things like, if God is good, why do people suffer? Why is there evil in the world generally? Or, like, why does God even allow, like, believers, Christians to suffer or have terrible deaths? Like, I know that's a huge question that people have been talking about for, like, literally thousands of years, but I also feel like because of your ministry, in a lot of ways, you're uniquely equipped to speak to this. And so I'd love to hear just some of your initial thoughts about that objection and that doubt, and then we can kind of maybe go from there.
[00:08:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I would definitely start, I guess, just by saying I would not want to pretend, like, when it comes to this topic and subject of suffering, like, I have all the answers.
[00:08:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:49] Speaker B: And, you know, kind of have it all figured out. I Think it's really, really important to ask the Lord to help us live in tension, you know, live in the tension and just wrestle through truths. And so, yeah, I guess I would just say I've listened to, you know, and enjoyed so many podcasts and in some ways my heart just longs to, to hear people, you know, just wrestle in the tension with truth and with the Lord and ask him to, you know, guide them and lead them and sometimes, oftentimes that's not always, you know, clear cut. And in our lives it can, can sometimes, you know, just look messy. And so, so yeah, in, in some ways I just want to kind of let everyone know that, that maybe what this, this podcast might look like a little bit. Um, yeah, because suffering is such a messy topic. You know, I know that obviously a lot of people, every person listening to this, me, you, we've all experienced suffering, a lots of suffering, various forms of suffering. It's so important, I think, to also just kind of lay a foundation on the reality, the truth, that there are different kinds of suffering.
And sometimes some truths that apply to certain, certain types of suffering don't apply to other types of suffering. And so I would also just kind of encourage everyone, as we do try to explore some of these truths, you know, not to, to feel this pressure to try to apply it to every, every type of suffering you may have experienced and just again, ask the Lord to help you take truths, apply them to the, the types of suffering that they're meant for. Yeah, because I mean, there's consequences from our own bad choices. There's, you know, just general effects of sin and the fallen nature, you know, in the world that we experience that can lead to suffering. There's other persons, you know, other people's bad decisions that bring suffering into our lives. There's God's loving, you know, discipline over our life that can bring suffering. So, yeah, there's just quite a, you know, quite a few, just to name a few. There's quite a few different types of suffering. So just a few initial thoughts.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: That's such a good word and such a good reminder, David. You know, this is a, it's an incredibly complex subject. And it's not just a complex subject, it's an intimate subject. Right. Because in general, if someone brings this up, it's not an abstract intellectual exercise. They're not sitting, going, well, I've read the theology and how does this. It's almost always because they're in pain, they've experienced some horrific thing and they're going, this doesn't feel right. This doesn't seem like it lines up with what you're telling me about God. And so we don't want to ever offer people cliches or try answers that.
That downplay the reality of real people experiencing real awful things.
I'd love, if you would be willing.
I don't want to degrade into a disaster tourism kind of conversation, but you have seen firsthand the depths of suffering and evil. And so I'm wondering, thinking through those different types, if you could give us just some examples of, you know, without being too morbid, like, what. What are some of the things that you encounter in your work in Malawi?
And how might that. Those sorts of experiences, like, how can you. Can you validate how those would challenge someone's view of a good God?
[00:12:20] Speaker B: Yeah, just looking at, you know, the kind of the three main things that the ministry is a part of, it definitely, you know, comes alongside of three very intense forms of suffering. And so that first kind of category of starting with evangelism, you know, village by village in Malawi, of course, there's the aspect of people that are lost and do not know Jesus as their savior and, you know, will then potentially spend eternity apart from the presence of God. That is just an intense form of suffering that we would like to, you know, in sharing the gospel, bring relief to.
[00:13:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:04] Speaker B: And so I definitely have found myself just kind of clinging to when Jesus at one point, I'm not exactly sure what chapter and verse, but he's, you know, entering Jerusalem and it just says he. I believe it even says he began.
I could be wrong in the, the weeping part, but he just kind of cries out, says they're like sheep without a shepherd, you know, and how much he long, I long to just, you know, like a hen gathers her chicks, I long to gather them under my wings, you know, and just this longing and desire for, you know, us as God's children to not live without our shepherd. So entering into a village, there's definitely that aspect of suffering. I think there's another aspect of suffering that I was not expecting to encounter necessarily or didn't know that I would just as. As you, you know, are in the line or, you know, at the front of a line of, you know, sometimes 50, 100 people coming up for prayer. And we have other staff members, sometimes short term missions, trip team members coming and just praying over a mass group of, you know, three, four or 500 people, like, just lining up in, in these multiple lines, the types of prayer requests that you receive.
In some ways it's hard to summarize. There's a lot, obviously, but in some ways when people are apart, you know, from knowing Jesus as their savior, apart from the presence of God in their lives, one, one thing that you see very vividly in villages is almost like, you know, our battle is not against flesh and blood, it's against the principalities of darkness. And so it's almost like this evil, this darkness, you know, maybe even demonic realm is just really doing everything that they can to cause as much misery and not even necessarily a physical type of pain and suffering in these people's lives, but just the misery of the amount of fear and torments and nightmares, you know, that they just, that they're, that is their constant reality daily. And the type of prayer requests that come is really intense. And so that's definitely no kind of two, two aspects of suffering in a here now and, and for the, you know, for the sake of eternity that we confront regularly. The second one, of course is, you know, in our trauma counseling safe home, you know, obviously the, the abuse of, you know, oftentimes a grown man that's sometimes 20, 30, 40 years older than a young girl, I'm the average age of 12 that comes into our safe home, seeing her as, you know, someone that they can use to try to bring pleasure to themselves, try to fill some kind of void in their life with the, the exploitation of a girl's innocence is an immense amount of suffering. One thing that I have seen in this study was just in the process of interviewing girls who have been abused. They were talking about the essentially the pain and the suffering that they had gone through after the initial abuse of, you know, going to the police, reporting it, being sent home without being able to receive any help.
In most of Malawi, again, we're, we're the first and only long term trauma counseling safe home. The vast majority of cases of abuse girls are just at home and the police tell them, we'll try to arrest, you know, gather as much evidence and arrest the perpetrator, but we really have no resources to offer you.
And culturally, in Malawi, her girl who's been abused can tend to just kind of lose all of their value in the eyes of society and they begin to just get ostracized and mocked and ridiculed and all of the blame of the abuse can tend to be placed on the girl. And just seeing in this study girls saying that that type of abuse, that type of, you know, being marginalized and just bullied was worse than the actual initial abuse. You know, at the Hands of the perpetrator is. Yeah, it's just heartbreaking. And so, yeah, just. Yeah. Being able to, you know, have the privilege of bringing girls into a long term safe home so they don't have to face that, you know, that second form of abuse after having essentially just gone through probably the worst thing they could ever imagine, now facing the second or maybe even something even worse. Yeah, with just kind of losing all their friends and wanting to lock themselves in their bedroom and, you know, some of them committing suicide because it's just so miserable.
And so, yeah, definitely addressing that, you know, kind of type of suffering.
And then of course, with the men, you know, the men's ministry home to help men walk. I mean, sorry, the. Just the men's ministry groups helping men walk in sexual integrity. Just the suffering of kind of, like I mentioned, a man that has this void inside of them that I believe only Jesus can fill. Looking for things, even to the extent of the innocence of a young girl to try to satisfy this void and this emptiness in their life is, is, Is heartbreaking.
At the same time, you know, the Lord does call us to pray, you know, over our enemies. And there's this incredibly powerful quote that has helped me a lot. This guy named Henry Longfellow, he just says if we could see the secret histories of even our worst enemies, it would unveil enough pain and abuse that would diffuse even our worst hostilities. Oh.
And so, yeah, one thing I try to hold onto as we're doing ministry with men is just thinking, man, these, these men have gone through immense amounts of suffering and they are not only perpetrators, they have been perpetrated against by, you know, Satan. I believe, to make them be as miserable and suffer as much as possible and then use other people and cause suffering in the lives of other people. And if Jesus could come and be a healing balm in their hearts and their lives, we could see a sustainable reduction in cases of sexual abuse as they get freedom from that form of being perpetrated against by, you know, evil itself. So those are kind of the three main types of separate. We confront on a regular basis.
[00:19:32] Speaker A: I, I know this is a little bit of a rabbit trail, but I, I just, I'm just so appreciative of that perspective you shared, man. The just the way the Lord has led your ministry to have such, such a whole gospel view of, of this real need and hurt. It is, it's powerful, man. Like, I'm sure you hear this exact thing a lot, but like, it is, it is difficult for me personally to move past the, I think even righteous anger of injustice to consider the perpetrators with compassion. But the, the exactly what you said, like having the perspective to realize, you know, it's, it's a cliche, but it's a cliche for a reason, that it's hurt people who hurt people. And there's something about what's going on in, in those perpetrators own hearts that is just as sorrowful and just as in need of intervention and help. It is such a beautiful picture, man.
But I gotta be honest, I feel like as we're talking, like hearing you describe this to me, it doesn't seem even mildly strange that these kinds of depths of evil and hurt that we're talking about, whether it is the kind of loneliness and emptiness that draws people to evil decisions, or the pain and injustice of violation and being ostracized, like all these things you're describing, it seems really intuitive to me that someone would experience something like that and just go, well, I don't know how the heck God can even exist, much less be good or care about me.
And so I guess my question is, I don't know if it's feels that natural to you as well, but do you think there are just any assumptions or misconceptions about God that contribute to that? Right. Like, is there, is there some fundamental wrong way we're thinking about God that makes it such a natural leap to move from my suffering to, well, he must not be good?
[00:21:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I would definitely start, you know, just by my belief is, you know, God creates Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and, you know, give gives them a sense of agency, you know, did not create them as robots and program them to love him in return. Love is something that, you know, I believe can just exist when there are two beings that have agency and choose to give and receive love to one another. And God would not subvert, you know, our will. He created us, I believe, with free will. Even though I do also believe in, you know, God's sovereignty, I believe these, these, not that we have to get too theological, but these are just kind of two seemingly contradictory ideas that actually coexist. And not only coexist, they complement one another.
The reality of these two are just kind of two sides of the same coin.
And so, yeah, overall I would just say, you know, I don't believe that God is the source of suffering, that God is the source of evil. I believe that in this free will that he has given us this freedom to either to love him in return or to reject him. We were Responsible as humanity in bringing evil and suffering into the world. And I just, you know, see even, even just something as small as Genesis chapter three from 2022 to 24, you know, it just talks about how God sees, okay? Man has now become like one of us, knowing good from evil, you know, he must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever.
So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden. And just this reality that, you know, we think, God, why did. Why did you make Adam and Eve suffer? Why did you give them this incredibly harsh punishment of kicking them out of the Garden of Eden that you created them to live in? That was so beautiful and so wonderful. Why did that have to be part of the punishment? Not seeing, you know, that God isn't just ruthlessly like, oh, you disobeyed me. Well, he. Here, you know, take that.
Like, I see this as an act of love for him to say, for God to say, man, if they have eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, if they reach out their hand and eat from the tree of life, they essentially will live forever in a perpetual state of fallenness. And I actually need to protect them from that and remove them from the Garden of Eden where they could eat from the tree of life, so that they can be protected and so that they can actually be able to have the ability to die and then through death, you know, hopefully, by placing. As they place their faith in Jesus and the death of Jesus, you know, bringing redemption and the payment for sin allowed, you know, this resurrection and this rebirth into eternal life is just wild. It's. It's God actually, you know, we can see the, the small kind of aspect of that suffering as God. Why would you do this without seeing the bigger picture that we. I just wonder how much of our suffering that we go through without us really fully comprehending or knowing it could actually be a form of God protecting us from something worse and actually loving us.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Come on, man.
I think you've tapped into. The fundamental thing is, is, you know, the Bible describes God as sovereign, meaning he. He reigns, he has power, he has the authority. And so the, the natural assumption is, well, if I'm experiencing something bad, God did it to me, and why would he do that?
And I love the way you're picking this apart because, yeah, the scripture very obviously describes God as sovereign. And even the scripture describes God doing some.
Making some harsh choices for humanity that causes suffering, like kicking him out of the garden, but it simultaneously is Describing a world where God has given us agency, where we have to make our own choices and bear responsibility for our choices. And it's also describing a God who very obviously has a bigger, better perspective than we do. And so I think maybe the.
What I'm hearing, what you're saying is that I think maybe the wrong assumptions we make about God in our suffering is that we think about suffering in these very simplistic black and white terms when really there's very complex going on there of the interaction between God's sovereignty and our agency and our free will, and also God's overarching plan for humanity. You know, there's a story I've shared from the pulpit several times. When my oldest daughter, Millie was younger, we had this day where.
And she was probably, I'm going to.
[00:26:36] Speaker B: Get the age wrong.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: She was probably in like three or four, like that kind of age range, right? And she went with me and did errands all day long. And it was like a long, exhausting day. And I was really proud of her for behavior. And our last stop was at Walmart, of all places. And so I go, you know what? Hey kid, I'm gonna buy you a toy while we're at Walmart, I'm gonna get you a special treat because you did so good, right? And so we get into Walmart and I'm taking her back to the back section of the store where the toys are. And like, that was the moment when she hit her wall for actual behavior and regulation, right? And so the minute we get in the store, she starts misbehaving more and more and more. And it comes out in her every like 10ft. She's like, dad, I want that, dad, bring me that. And it's like nonsense stuff, right? Like Disney princess branded toilet, training seat or whatever. I'm going, no, I'm not getting you that. No, I'm not getting you that. And she's getting so frustrated, she starts to have this meltdown. She's sobbing, she's like, dad, why won't you give me this? And the whole, you know, from her little kid perspective, her thing is going, you said you were going to get me a treat and they're not getting me anything. And you're saying no to every one. This is so unjust and it's so unfair. And the whole time I'm going, there's a toy aisle in the back of the store. Like, you have no idea where I'm. You don't want a toilet seat, you want a toy. And that's a silly way to talk about it, but that experience burned in my mind because I just thought, she doesn't have the capacity to think about this situation the way I'm thinking about it.
She just can't think about it on my terms. And so I've just got to push through and let her be miserable while we walk through these 20 aisles. And once we get to where we're going, she's going to see that I had meaning in it. And she's going to see, you know, the blessing I have for it. And I don't want that to feel like I'm dismissing or diminishing people's very real pain and suffering. But I do think there's something there of just going, you know, we can like, we can actually trust that God's sovereignty is interacting with the evil and brokenness of this world to bring something about that he might have something in mind that we don't have, you know.
[00:28:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think for. For me, one of the most helpful. I think there's two things that were misconceptions that I had. Had just assumed that I have come through scripture to understand not to be reality. One was I. I was kind of curious about the Garden of Eden. And it was like, was that heaven? Is that what we're going back to? And really coming to this clear reality that heaven is going to be better than what Adam and Eve experienced, you know, pre fall.
[00:29:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: In the Garden of Eden. So that was one thing that was very helpful. Secondly, I just assume that angels in heaven are experiencing the fullness of everything that God is, you know, and have been since they were created.
And just, you know, I almost, in some ways, I don't know if I would have put it to words like this, but angels are just kind of like, man, I can't wait for, you know, humanity, those who have placed their faith in Jesus to be able to experience the fullness of what we are, you know, existing in right now. Here in heaven. Yeah. In the presence of God. And. And there. So there's kind of two scriptures that have helped debunk these and just given me a lot of clarity over, you know, God, what God's plan from the beginning has always been. And so one of them is Ephesians, you know, in chapter three. It has been incredibly helpful, really, verse 10. But I mean, just the passage from verse eight to 13, it just again talks about, you know, Paul is saying, although I'm the least, I'm less than the least of all of the Lord's people. This grace was given me to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery. And so the Gospel is explained as a mystery which is very intriguing to me, you know, and then he says, which for ages past was kept hidden in God who created all things. His intent was that now, through the Church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers. Who's. Who is this mystery being made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms according to his eternal purpose that he accomplishes in Christ Jesus our Lord, you know, in him, and through faith in him, we may approach God with freedom and confidence. And I ask you therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory. Paul is essentially saying, man, God.
God has something way better than what Adam and Eve experienced in the Garden of Eden. There is this mystery that's being kept hidden in God that can only be fully experienced as Even, you know, 1st Peter 1, verse 12 talks about how angels long to look into, you know, they're staring at the church, they're staring at you, and they're staring at me. As we are being pursued in our rebellion by Jesus Christ, and the forgiveness of our sin has been paid for on the cross by the work of Jesus. They. They're staring at us in awe, like man. I long to look into these things. I long to better understand these things. And there are attributes of God like his grace and mercy that the world, the universe, angels would never be able to understand and comprehend about who God truly is. The fullness of who he is would never really be fully experienced and realized if it was not for the fall, you know. And so again, God, I don't believe is this source of saying, yep, I'm going to bring evil, you know, into the world in this way. No, through agency, humanity did. But he had a plan the whole time to say, I want the universe, I want angels, I want humanity to know exactly who I am and exactly what grace and exactly what mercy are. These are, you know, intrinsic values, you know, they're intrinsic into who I am. Loving someone when they do not deserve it, you know. And loving what? Yeah, what is, you know, grace and what is mercy? Essentially loving someone when they don't deserve it, you know, not giving them the punishment they do deserve and then giving them something good that they don't deserve.
And so, yeah, this mystery is being revealed in the church, you know, as a result of the fall. Exactly like what you're saying, you know, there's something so much better that God has for us and in a strange way, beyond our comprehension. It can only be experienced and realized as a result of, you know, going through suffering and suffering, coming into the world. That's.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: I. I think that's the mysterious, strange piece here. That's. That gives me so much hope in my own experiences of hurt and suffering. It's this fact that God in his sovereignty has said, whatever heaven is like, you having experienced suffering before you get there will make it better than if you just went straight.
I don't fully understand that. Right. Like that. That falls short of my understanding because I go. I think getting there without pain sounds great.
And yet there's something about this actual gospel the Bible describes and God's plan that says no. There's something about your experience of suffering and your finding healing, hope, redemption in Christ in the midst of suffering, that God does something with that to bring meaning and to bring something more complete in eternity.
It makes me think of this, and this is a striking image. I think that that to me, is a real grounding remembrance in the midst of suffering. And it's that when you look in the four Gospels, when Christ suffers and dies and resurrects and then the apostles meet with him again in his resurrected, perfect, glorious body, he still bears the wounds of his crucifixion, right? Like, he goes up. The apostles was like, check it out. Like, stick your fingers in the hole. Right? Like, it's a really weird scene, in part because my initial thought is, well, the horrors of the cross would be erased by the beauty of resurrection. And yet there's something about Christ in his glory that still includes the wounds of his suffering, the wounds of the curse, like he's carrying those into eternity. And I think there's something there, man. I really do.
Like, I think there's something in us being able to experience the real horrors of this world and not downplay them, not pretend like they don't matter, but be able to say, I trust that God is going to bring some kind of meaning and purpose out of this that I can't fully see it. There's something about the eternity he has planned for me that will bring a fulfillment, fulfillment that will bring meaning out of this suffering.
And I think the Bible models that. I think Christ models that to us.
[00:36:00] Speaker B: Yeah, one of my favorite verses is. I think it's Romans chapter three. Or no, sorry, I think it's Romans chapter five, verses three through five. And it's pretty well known, at least when it comes to the topic of suffering. You know, it just says that suffering develops character and leads to perseverance and ultimately results in hope that, you know, without suffering, going through suffering, you know, essentially, yeah, there can be a lack of character in our lives that has not come into our life, you know, if we haven't passed through various types of suffering and that good things can come, you know, God works all things together for the good of those who love Him. He's just saying, man, I can work this together for good. I can bring you to a place of placing your hope in me and hungering and crying out, you know, as you exist in this reality that this place is not my home, you know, God has something much better for me. And actually, to the extent that I am seeing and experiencing suffering, it gives me a greater passion and pursuit and desire and hope in God. You know, I can't. I just can't wait to be with youh. I can't wait to experience the fullness of youf presence and see youe face to face.
And yeah, just place, you know, your hope in that. In that future reality of just experiencing the true fullness of everything that he is.
[00:37:20] Speaker A: That.
That actually brings me to a thought, David, that I think is. I think this is a perfect transition to that. You know, one of the things I love about you and the reason I asked you to speak to this hairy theological issue that things have been discussing and debating for 2,000 years, is that in spite of the suffering you've witnessed, like you personally, your faith has been activated instead of destroyed. Like, I feel like I think about this pretty much every time we reconnect is that, man, you and your family, you guys see some of the darkest sin this world has to offer, and yet you've built your life around combating human suffering.
And so I'd love to know, man, what are some of the ways that you have personally experienced God's goodness or his presence in the midst of extreme hardship? And then maybe do you see God or the gospel having a role in the relief of human suffering? Right. Like, what is it about your faith that caused you to activate, to move instead of shut down in the midst of the stuff you've experienced?
[00:38:35] Speaker B: Yeah. I would share one specific story that comes to mind that happened in December of 2023. I remember our head trauma counselor came into the office that my wife and I share at, at our safe home, and she essentially, I won't go, you know, too much into detail, but just explained, hey, here's. Here's the stories of the three girls that you know, we've received into our program this week. And I remember the last story was a girl walking home from middle school. Men offered to give her a ride. She said no, but they pulled her into their car, drove her to the woods, and essentially, man just tied, you know, one leg to one tree and the other leg to another tree and just abused her for about four hours. And I remember we were working, my wife and I were working on a lot of documents and policies and procedures involved in the running of our, our school. We have a primary school and we kind of had a lot of work to do that day. And I just remember our head trauma counselor leaving and us just kind of going back to our work immediately, you know, and not seemingly really being affected very much by that.
And I remember my wife turned to me and she said, David, how can we hear something like that and just like, immediately go on with the rest of our day? You know, is there something wrong with us? Are we becoming hard hearted? Are we, you know, are we experiencing burnout? And those questions were really something that I wrestled with over the next few months. Yeah, just I, I brought some questions to the Lord, you know, God, is this, is this a natural defense mechanism where I, you know, if I feel too much pain and too much suffering, that I will burn and that'll actually, you know, cause, yeah, me to just not like, to crumble to pieces and not be able to move forward with ministry. And is the hardening of my heart something that you actually want or is this not something that you want?
And I just remember him clearly saying, david, this is not a defense, a defense mechanism that I want for you. I want your heart to reflect my heart. I want your heart to be like my heart. And my heart breaks every single time when I see this type of suffering, this type of injustice, every type of suffering and every type of injustice done, you know, to my children, my heart breaks. And I want your heart to be like my heart.
And then I was kind of saying, okay, what if. Yeah, what if it breaks too much? You know, like, how do I trust, you know, that.
That you will protect me, you know, that you will sustain me even when I'm allowing my heart to be broken the way that, the way that yours is. And I just remember so clearly, you know, David Ahonte, I want to help you. You know, just learn how to trust me that I will sustain you. I want to teach you how to harness this pain and suffering that you are experiencing in the brokenness of your heart so that this can be something that will propel you further into a deeper passion to see my kingdom come to earth. And actually, if you were to allow your heart to become hardened and not feel, that is actually what causes lifelessness in your heart, in your life, in your relationship with me in the ministry, and that is what would result in burnout, that would prevent you from being able to continue in the ministry.
And so, yeah, just lean into me. Trust me that I've got you, that I care about you. I'm protecting you, and allow your heart to be broken the way that mine is.
So I don't know exactly if that answers your question, but it's definitely just something that. Yeah, yeah, I. I believe the Lord has helped, you know, teach me and. And carry me into just the truth of allowing my heart to continue to feel the pain and the suffering and trusting that he'll use it for good and propel me and the ministry of Winter Saints forward into doing more of his will on earth.
[00:42:42] Speaker A: Thank you for sharing that, man. That is. I mean, that's an intimate thing to share, and I appreciate that.
I think you tapped exactly into it, man. There is something about the character of God that he weeps at suffering. There is no evil that happens in the world that he doesn't see.
There is no injustice that doesn't break his heart.
And, man, if we are seeking to walk in the steps of Christ, then what you mentioned earlier, his prayer, they're harassed and helpless like sheep without a shepherd. Oh, I long to draw you under my wings as a hen. Like, if that is the heart of Christ for this world and we're walking in his steps, that will increasingly become our heart.
And those who follow Christ are those who run toward suffering to seek to be the hands and feet of Jesus to alleviate it. And I think there is something about the gospel that really does.
It moves us past being shut down by suffering and moves us toward wanting to be, you know, a force against it, a force to bring about human flourishing and alleviate injustice. And those things. It's.
I thank you for sharing that, man. And I know you know this, but I just want to say this, like, as your friend and a brother in Christ, like you and your family are a beautiful testimony of what it means to stay tender and to stay actively engaged in the work of the kingdom here on earth. Dude, I deeply appreciate you in the work you guys do.
Let me.
Let me land us by kind of bringing it back home and just say if there's. If there's someone listening to this and they're going, you know, wow, David, that's a cool story. I'm glad you do that. But my life's really rough and I have a lot of doubts. Right. Like what advice would you give to someone who's confused or discouraged by the presence of evil and suffering broadly or even in their own lives? Like, how can someone actually maintain their faith and their hope in, in the presence of suffering?
[00:44:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think mainly I would just say I'm there with you, you know, and you, you're not alone in the wrestles that you have. I'll share another story that has culminated in the past couple months, really over the last two or three years in my own life, in my own relationship with the Lord, where in early January 2022, our board kind of essentially put together a 10 year vision document of just. Okay, what, what, what is our, you know, essentially what's our goals? What's our plan over the next 10 years we'd like to accomplish. In the process of doing this, we kind of took a 30,000 foot view over the injustice of sexual abuse in Malawi and thought, okay, how many safe homes might need to be, you know, kind of planted across the country? How many victim support units of the police do not have. We have seven that refer cases to us, but you know, how many are there across Malawi? How many safe homes might there be needed to where a girl wouldn't have to be sent home without receiving any help after she's been abused type of thing. And I just remember kind of thinking, I got this image in my head recently of just a big oil spill and you know, when the saints is cleaning up a very tiny corner of this oil spill that feels like.02%, you know, of the overall oil spill of, you know. Yeah, this, you know, human suffering of sexual abuse across Malawi and the other types of suffering we do it that I mentioned. And you know, at first when you are kind of on this little part of the oil spill, it can feel so incredibly fulfilling to have the privilege and honor of being a part of, you know, playing this small role in the kingdom of heaven, you know, glorifying the name of Jesus. But when you see the 30,000 foot view and then you go back to the day to day work, all of a sudden it very quickly became just feeling like it was very insignificant.
[00:46:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:47:00] Speaker B: In relation to the vast amount of suffering in the world. And I just remember it brought in some ways, I don't even know if I want to say it was toxic, a toxic element into my prayer life because I, I have gotten a lot of hope in just how honest, you know, David was in the Psalms with the Lord.
And so I think one truth, one reality, as, you know, again, you as a listener may be kind of thinking, man, how. How can God be good? You know, what good can come from suffering? One of the clearest goods that I have seen come into my life is just as I've confronted and encountered suffering, both my own personal suffering and the suffering of others. It has consistently, maybe if it's not the way that I want, it has promoted more intimacy in my relationship with the Lord, just as I have run to him and I have cried out to him, God, what's going on? What are you doing? You know, why aren't you doing more? It feels like you don't really care that much because so many girls are being sent home without receiving any kind of help.
And, man, honestly, three days ago, I was reading through Daniel, chapter nine, and I see Daniel documenting one of his prayers. And the line that punched me in the face and just totally stuck out to me was him saying, God, for the sake of your glory, God, for the sake of your name, do this.
And so I did a bunch of research, and I found asap, and David and Moses and Hezekiah and Daniel and Joshua, all praying this same prayer, God, for the sake of your name, for the sake of your glory, no, do this. And it was this. I just found a lot of solidarity. Yeah. In that prayer that I don't have to take on this burden of trying to help eliminate suffering in the world. I get to see suffering and allow that to be a motivating factor to run to the feet of the Lord and lay my face, you know, down before him. And God, just say, for the sake of your name, God, for the sake of your glory, move. Use me however you will, however you desire. And so I would definitely just, yeah, encourage you to ask the Lord to even help you.
Allow suffering to be something that brings you into a deeper and more intimate relationship with God as you wrestle with him and ask him tough questions and sometimes even bring accusations against him. You know, as I was saying, it feels like it seems like you don't care very much. God, help me understand. I know that you're good. I wouldn't care about this injustice if it wasn't for you sharing your heart with me so that I know that you care even more than I do. And so help me not to believe lies.
Don't let me fall into temptation. Reveal truth to me. Just, you know, wrestle and struggle with the Lord. And he's Faithful.
[00:49:55] Speaker A: You know what it makes me think of as you're sharing that is John the Baptist. You know, Jesus called John the Baptist essentially one of the greatest men of faith ever.
And yet when John experienced injustice and suffering, it caused him to doubt, right? Like, he's sitting in prison thinking he's going to get executed. And he sends messengers to Jesus and is like, hey, did I get this wrong? Like this? It does. I didn't think it would turn out this way.
And I've.
I've. For most of my faith, I've kind of wrestled Jesus's response to him. But you're. I feel you're helping me connect dots right now, because Jesus basically just says, well, tell him what I'm doing.
Tell him how the ministry's going. He doesn't say, don't worry about John. It's good.
He just says, tell him what's happening. And he describes his ministry of combating suffering, of helping the poor and preaching the good news and healing people who are ill.
It basically just says, look what God's doing.
You're good. And there is, man, I love that truth of just going.
The God is the one ultimately who has entered into history and is defeating the curse through Christ.
And we get to it because those who are following Christ are going to be like him. But we don't have to carry that on our shoulders.
What a beautiful truth, man.
Hey, listen, dude, I want to thank you so much for your time. I know you got a lot going on, and you're only stateside for the amount of time you are. And so I appreciate you setting aside time to have this conversation with me twice, because the first time I met, we didn't record it. So thank you for. For doing that with me, man. I. I really appreciate you.
Yeah.
[00:51:45] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm glad we got to connect again.
[00:51:48] Speaker A: Hallelujah. You have saved us from the ones that we love.
Yes. Hallelujah. Are they not enough?
Hallelujah. You have saved us from the ones that we love.
Hallelujah, man, that was powerful. Ah. That was challenging for my heart. That was good for my heart. I hope that was a benefit to you as well. As we land out today, let me give us a couple reminders. First, another thank you to our sponsor, Amanuel Fellowship Church that makes this podcast possible. Check them out online. Immanuel fellowshipstl.com they're also on major social media platforms and YouTube. And let me also thank Travis Steel Page for the use of our theme song Family.
You can check them out through all the major streaming platforms. Travis Steele, Page and the Capital Club.
I think that's it, guys. Thanks for hanging out with us today. And we will see you again soon.
I've been called man of God.
The one. The blood's washed clean.
But the biggest step of faith I'm taking is saying I don't believe.
Well, I'm sorry to say I'm back and I've got some questions for you.
If it weren't for that girl, I'd be nowhere near you.
