[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to another episode of the Stumble where we're having meaningful conversations from a Christian perspective about faith, doubt, and how the heck those two things can live together in your life. My name is Sam Tennell.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: I'm your host.
[00:00:18] Speaker A: Before we get too far into this, let me take a second to thank today's sponsor, Emmanuel Fellowship Church in Ellisville, Missouri. Emmanuel Fellowship Church's mission statement says, as Christ pours into us, he pours out of us. I love that statement because what they mean by that is that they believe in overflow ministry, that when individual people are filled to the brim with Christ, when they are finding life and joy and freedom in the Gospel of Jesus, that they have an abundance of joy and life and freedom to share with the world around them. So come check out Emmanuel Fellowship church in Ellisville, Missouri. If you live in the St. Louis area and be filled with Christ in, it's a joyful and wonderful community. If you live in the St. Louis area, I want to give you an invitation for the rest of 2025. I am personally going to be setting aside time to sit with people who live in this area who are working through their own doubts and struggles. This isn't for the purpose of recording an episode of this podcast, but just to give people a safe place to process what they're going through. If you're listening to this podcast and it's still 2025 and you're in the St. Louis area and you'd like to just have a voice on your team to help you work through and process whatever's going on in your faith journey, I'd encourage you to reach out. You can reach
[email protected] hello fcstl.com reach out and we can schedule a time to grab a coffee, sit and talk through whatever you're going through, I'm really excited for today's episode. We're going to be talking to Karen Kohlberg, who is the director of Spouse Care at First Light ministries here in St. Louis. Quick warning ahead of today's conversation. First Light is a sexual addiction recovery ministry. And so some of the content of today's discussion is going to speak about Karen's ministry and the work at first sight. So just be aware of that content. But we're talking about the idea of how Christians treat each other poorly. And Karen just brings a really unique and powerful perspective to this conversation. And so if you're listening to this and you're one of the people who just looks at Christianity and goes, man, the gospel invitation of Jesus Sounds pretty cool, but the way Christians present themselves.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: To the world and to one another is a major turnoff for me.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: I think you'll get a lot out of this conversation. So without any further ado, let's jump right into it.
[00:02:59] Speaker C: Foreign.
[00:03:06] Speaker B: I am here with Karen Kahlberg of First Light Ministries here in St. Louis. Karen, I am so glad you are taking the time to join us today.
[00:03:16] Speaker D: It's a great honor to be here, Sam.
[00:03:18] Speaker B: Oh, thank you so much.
[00:03:19] Speaker A: You will do it better than I do.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: So why don't you share a little bit of your background, your current role at First Light? I know you're the director of Sports Spouse Care there. Tell us a little bit about First Light, what it does, your work in recovery ministry and that kind of stuff, and we'll go from there.
[00:03:33] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:03:34] Speaker D: So First Light is a ministry in St. Louis that serves individuals who struggle with compulsive sexual behavior, and we also serve their families. So that, for me, specifically means I serve women who have discovered that their husband has had sex, secret sexual behaviors that they were not aware of or that did not resolve in the way they thought it had.
So I'm working with a lot of hurt.
And yeah, this is not light work. Sometimes people ask, oh, this is.
This is heavy. How do you get into a field like this?
Ideally, it's, you know, when you've experienced some of the pain in your own life and you discover that the Savior is bigger than you ever thought, you want to be able to share that hope with others.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: Amen.
[00:04:29] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:04:30] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much for hanging out with us. I told you this kind of offline, Karen, but I really think your work at First Light is just going to equip you to speak experientially to our topic today. A little bit. You know, we did this survey of people's doubts about around faith, and one of the topics that came up, honestly, it was really similar to another discussion. We had another topic, but I felt like it was nuanced enough that we needed to separate them out. And it essentially comes down to this idea of the transformational aspect of the biblical gospel.
If the gospel, as the Bible describes it, is true, why do Christians still treat each other so terribly?
[00:05:15] Speaker C: Right?
[00:05:16] Speaker B: Like, why do they continue to sin? I think maybe a better way to say it would be, if the gospel's real, shouldn't it change people for the better?
[00:05:26] Speaker C: Right.
[00:05:27] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: And so I know that's a super, like, broad starting point, but, man, what are some of your just initial thoughts on that challenging reality?
[00:05:39] Speaker D: Ah, well, My initial response is, woof.
[00:05:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I gave you the easy one.
[00:05:46] Speaker D: This is one question that I grieve over because I have. I have seen friends walk away from the faith because of what they saw in the church.
[00:05:59] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:05:59] Speaker D: And really, I mean, if I'm going to be honest about it, my own spiritual journey, I have been part of.
Of the harm within the church as well.
I've had to do a lot of growing and a lot of, like, redefining what is Christianity really in that process. But I also wrestle with the reality that I have hurt people without understanding and without knowing it. And it grieves me. It grieves me that the people who are closest to the Savior can also be people who can hurt people.
[00:06:35] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness.
[00:06:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: I've been in vocational pastoral ministry now for 15 years, and I look back on my own time, not even just as a Christian, but in this kind of leadership. And I think, you know, one of the beautiful things we get to do in ministry is we get to be with people at some of their highest of highs. Right. Like, I'm a pastor. I get to officiate weddings.
[00:07:00] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:07:00] Speaker D: And baptisms and dedications.
[00:07:03] Speaker E: And.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: But we're also in some of the hardest places with people.
[00:07:08] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: Sitting at deathbeds, talking with families when their marriages are falling apart or when there's extreme illness. And I look back and go, oh, my gosh, I have screwed that up and perpetrated bad theology and hurt a lot more often than I like to admit. You know.
[00:07:27] Speaker E: Yes. I'm guilty of it, too.
[00:07:30] Speaker B: In your experience working. And maybe we can just go, you know, if you want to share beyond that, that's fine. But at least starting with your work in recovery ministry, I know you've seen firsthand the way this works out. I know first light ministers to anyone, but I'm pretty confident the majority of the people in your program are professing Christians.
[00:07:53] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: And so without being too graphic, what are some of the ways you've seen harm or brokenness kind of work out? And how might that challenge this perception of, like, a transformed Christian life?
[00:08:06] Speaker D: Right.
In light of my field, there are some maybe more obvious things, like people struggling. They're going to church, maybe they're serving communion, but they're also binging porn during the week, or they're.
They're having an affair, maybe with somebody in the church, or they're arranging to meet up with prostitutes. Like, this is all part of the spectrum of my work. But really, like, that's not the only thing you have, Pastors who are so busy serving their congregation that they have no time or emotional bandwidth for their family and maybe erupt in anger. That or the husband who feels too much shame about his sexuality and doesn't want to have sex with his wife and she's struggling with like, am I not desirable enough? What's wrong with my body?
How did I land in this place? And that the fact that these things feel like you can't really talk about them. And so then in the church, where it should be the safest to talk about these things, sometimes we feel like it's not safe enough. And so we have to pretend. And that takes a toll on somebody's face.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness.
I think that's one of the hardest pieces about this, is because we can sit here and just really quickly, it's easy to validate this critique of Christianity.
[00:09:29] Speaker C: Right.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: Like, we've all seen Christians treat each other poorly.
And yet at the same time, if we've spent time reading the scripture, we know, well, the gospel is supposed to transform you. Like we are supposed to be different people.
[00:09:44] Speaker E: It is.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: And I think that creates some of this pressure. When you walk into that church building on Sunday morning, there is this internal assumption of, well, everyone else here is probably being transformed by the Gospel a lot more than I am.
[00:09:58] Speaker D: Yes.
Everyone else is smiling and dressed to the nines, and I can't let anyone else know that I yelled at my children and practically cursed them before we got in the car. And now we have to smile and pretend we're a good godly family.
[00:10:15] Speaker B: And so we just put on that plastic church face.
[00:10:18] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:10:19] Speaker B: I joke in our context, and I'll say the phrase is, oh, I'm more.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: Blessed than I deserve is translation for, I just fought with my wife in the car on the way here.
[00:10:31] Speaker E: Yes.
Yes.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: I think one of the reasons this objection comes up, I mean, it's experientially easy to validate.
[00:10:40] Speaker C: Right.
[00:10:41] Speaker B: Like we see it in the church. But I also do think there is some maybe cultural push toward this right now. You know, I think of a lot of the increasing discussions inside and outside the Christian faith community around spiritual abuse.
It makes me think of like the podcast the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.
[00:11:00] Speaker C: Right.
[00:11:01] Speaker B: And how things like that have shown a spotlight on some of the ways emotional and spiritual abuse creep into the Christian community.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: I know that's a little bit of.
[00:11:11] Speaker B: A separation from your day to day ministry, but do you want to give a little bit of some of your thoughts on that cultural shift and how that might affect Folks, ability to trust the Christian message of transformation.
[00:11:24] Speaker D: Yeah, that's a big question. I can only speak to maybe a part of it.
Yeah. I also listened to the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. It was a really helpful, insightful podcast. And I've been in spaces that were similar.
I think one of the challenges that the church has had to wrestle with is, like, Christianity should look a certain way, and sometimes it's not far off. I think that's the challenging part. So, like, we should be kind and we should be submissive to one another, but sometimes we apply that. And maybe somebody gets a pass because he's the pastor and he's leading and he feels like it's his job to call out things that are happening amongst his flock.
And so the flock submits or the elders submit.
[00:12:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:12:23] Speaker D: And. And then things start to go.
Start to pass that don't get addressed, where some people start to experience harm, like an angry outburst or feeling isolated or alienated from community.
And I think that's how I've seen it. I've seen, like, certain behaviors. When you conform, that's praised. But if you don't conform, then you're alienated, and that's not the way that God designed the church to be.
So, I don't know. It sounds like you have some thoughts, too.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: Well, Karen, I think you're. I think you're hitting on something so specific here.
It's really good. It's a really good way of articulating it is when we create environments in the church where one person or one group of people get a different standard of accountability that really just creates. I mean, I know it's a buzzword right now, but it creates a really toxic environment for spiritual health.
The idea that a pastor might be the one who gets to call out other people on their sin, but he's not going to get called out either because of his authority or because he's effective. Oh, he draws people in or whatever. I mean, that's a recipe for disaster. And it doesn't have to just be the pastor. We can create a lot of different environments where different groups get different standards. And maybe that's a church has a passion for their theology around complementarianism or something. And then unintentionally, they set two spiritual standards for the men in the room and the women in the room or something like that.
[00:14:02] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:14:03] Speaker D: I think in my context especially, there's this.
I think sometimes the church will talk about what a good godly family might look like.
And for the wife's part, women often internalize what that means for them.
So for this marriage to work, they need to kind of knuckle down and, like, work at it in a specific way and present this image that we are that godly family when internally and at home, their marriage is falling apart. But they don't have the permission, they don't feel that internal permission to share this and be honest and say, like, everything is falling apart and I don't know what to do.
And I think that's where my. This intersects with my work because I've had so many women sometimes hear from church leaders or members of the community, like, oh, your husband's doing this. Maybe if you just, you know, had sex a little more often, or maybe if you tried a little this or tried that, and it feels like they. It's easier for them. They don't want to hear the advice, so they just keep it inside, and it eats away at their soul.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: And maybe I need to stop here for just a second and define a couple terms. This is a little bit of a rabbit trail, but I think it's actually really helpful to this conversation.
In a lot of conservative. In evangelical theological circles, we do have these doctrinal convictions around complementarianism. And if you're listening, you don't know what that word means.
There's these two kind of categories that come up in Christian conversations of complementarianism and egalitarianism. And essentially it has to do with. With your theology of masculinity and femininity and the roles of men and women within the church and the life of faith.
And in egalitarian context, generally, I'm not going to. This is a lot more nuanced than I'm going to say in 10 seconds. But generally, an egalitarian context will say there's no real difference in roles, tasks, or authority between men and women. In a complementarian context, we'll say there's no difference in dignity or value between women. But there is a men and women, but there's a difference between appropriate roles and authority. And so in a complementarian church, things like pastors can only be men. And there are different spectrums of how that gets expressed.
I pastor in a Baptist church, and generally speaking, Southern Baptists are very passionate about their complementarian theology.
[00:16:35] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: But I think one of the things that happens unintentionally is, is that complementarianism can just turn into authoritarianism.
And what starts as well, God made men and women equal in dignity and equal in value. But he set apart different roles, becomes God made men and Women different and then different value ends up seeping in, in ways that people would never say out loud, but that you can really obviously see in some church cultures. And I think that's some of what you're zoning in on there, Karen. I've seen that in church context where there is an undue pressure put on a wife or even a woman to fix what really amounts to the lack of self control and sexual sin of the man.
[00:17:25] Speaker C: Right.
[00:17:25] Speaker B: Like it's her responsibility to fix his issue.
[00:17:29] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:17:30] Speaker D: I'm afraid that there are women who come to me who talks, say that this is their experience.
[00:17:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: And that's, I guess we're kind of going and we're agreeing here in long form.
But what I think comes out of this is that I think it's really easy to actually affirm this criticism of Christianity.
The Gospel describes a dramatic transformation of the individual where we are supposed to grow in holiness, we're supposed to grow in Christlikeness.
And yet when we look at the church, we can just really easily see how Christians still sin. And not only how Christians still sin, but sometimes Christians or structures within Christian communities actually protect people in their sin and further, some of that hurt.
And so I guess to kind of like acknowledging that, let me kind of turn the corner a little bit and just ask, what are some of your thoughts on how the Bible actually addresses this? Like how do you think the Bible speaks to this idea that believers still struggle with sin? Is there, are there any kind of misconceptions or misunderstandings of what it means to be transformed by the Gospel that's maybe contributing to this disillusionment folk have?
[00:18:52] Speaker D: Yeah, that's a really good question. And I don't even know that.
I can only speak to it in one way that I've come to understand as I've been doing this work in that like I was brought up to think that Christianity was a set of behaviors and beliefs.
If I'm going to be a good Christian, I'm going to read the Bible, go to church, I'm going to take care of my children a certain way and teach them to obey and do all of these things.
But what I'm coming to realize is that like, it enforces this message that Christianity is about trying harder, trying to meet this standard that is impossible for most all of us. And I think for a while maybe I was, when I was single and I didn't have this, have more. I hadn't experienced much of life yet. I'm like, oh, okay, I've got this down I am reading my Bible, I am praying. I am going to church.
I've got Christianity all figured out.
But then once I hit, like, I experienced life, you know, different challenges that I had not anticipated, those behaviors actually could not save me.
[00:20:01] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:02] Speaker D: And what I'm coming to realize is that Christianity is not beliefs and behaviors, but really a relationship.
A relationship that reminds me of who I am, that transforms me from the inside out. And I sometimes think of this in terms of, like, you know, when two people fall in love.
When my husband and I fell in love, one of the things his family enjoys doing is camping. And my family, my parents were Chinese immigrants, so, like, camping was not a thing in family.
And so my mom would say, like, karen, like, you don't camp.
And I was like, well, I'm going to learn how.
And so I think, like, when you're in a relationship with someone, you actually subtly start changing.
[00:20:52] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:53] Speaker D: You suddenly start trying different foods or you shift when you sleep and when you wake. And that's kind of how I conceptualize Christianity. I think the misconception is when we buckle down and we're like, no, you're not being a good Christian. You're. Your husband's looking at porn. That's not good Christian behavior. You must not be a good Christian family. But if instead, the message is, you know what? This is something you cannot change.
But the Savior, we have a savior who can change it. And if you press in close to him, let him show you your worth. Let him tell you, or soothe your anxieties so that you don't have to turn to this.
And that's what shifts, shifts internally. I think that's what transformation looks like.
[00:21:43] Speaker B: Karen. That is. I love that analogy of the marriage in part because, I mean, that is the new. One of the New Testament analogies that Jesus uses to describe our relationship with him.
[00:21:54] Speaker C: Right?
[00:21:54] Speaker B: Yes, but it's just. It's so concrete and brings it home. It is so easy to just assume Christianity is defined by the outward, visible behaviors and beliefs of the person claiming Christ.
[00:22:09] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:22:10] Speaker B: But anyone can engage in a group of behaviors if they want to.
That doesn't change our fundamental identity. And thinking about the marriage pieces is so good because once you're married, you're married regardless of what your behaviors look like. In a healthy marriage, you should be changing your behaviors, right?
[00:22:30] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: But that doesn't speak to the identity piece. The identity piece is locked in through those vows.
What a great way to think about that.
It feels to me like you're kind of zoning in on this idea of the word the Bible uses sanctification, our growing in holiness, how that comes out of relationship with Christ.
[00:22:55] Speaker A: I don't want to put you too.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: Much on the spot, but to kind of sit there for a minute.
How might you define the term sanctification? And how might we see that actually working in the life of the believer? Because I think what we're zoning in on here is, yes, the Gospel does proclaim there will be transformation, but that's not this instantaneous, mechanical thing. It's really birthed on some level out of our relationship with Christ.
So if someone's listening to this going, okay, I've seen Christians treat each other terribly. And I've been the Christian who's a hypocrite, who doesn't practice what I preach or what I believe.
What does it look like to actually see transformation happen? Like, what is that process in your mind?
[00:23:47] Speaker D: I have thought about this a lot, and women come to me wanting to heal.
And I think there is quite a lot of mystery to it.
The way that I conceptualize sanctification is a lot like the parable of the Good Samaritan.
So the man going between Jerusalem and Jericho and gets beaten up, and then along comes a priest and a Levite and then lastly a Samaritan.
And I grew up reading this parable thinking, like, oh, I'm supposed to be like the Good Samaritan. I should help people that are in need when I come across them. But really, what I think that parable is saying, it's highlighting one of the great tensions in Jewish culture as they look down upon Samaritans as kind of like in Harry Potter language, like, half blood. Is it mud blood? Mud bloods, yeah. Like, you know, they're only part Jewish and they have part gentile.
Like, they're not pure blood. And so, like, there is great enmity and, like, pride and condescension and bigotry happening between these two cultures. And Jesus chooses the Samaritan to be the hero of the story.
I think in part because if the Gospel were true, we are not to be like the Samaritan. We are to understand what it feels like to be the man dying on the side of the road where the people who we thought would help us failed to help us.
But along comes our Great Samaritan who laid down his life and poured his resources and overlooked centuries of enmity or decades of enmity to care for my needs. And if I can get up and walk again and breathe and live a life again, if I come across another Samaritan. I couldn't possibly think of them in the same way I couldn't possibly look at them without thinking of the first Samaritan.
And so I think the Christian life, sometimes we're like, if you just try harder to do this or that, like, we run out of steam. But if we live in reality, in the reality that I was the man dying on the side of the road, except for this Samaritan who saved me, and that's why I can, in the future, if I run into somebody else, I will have resources, because I've seen it and I've felt it and I've reaped the benefits of it. I think that's a lot more of what sanctification looks like.
[00:26:31] Speaker C: Wow.
I love that.
[00:26:35] Speaker B: I had a mentor once who said, willpower is an exhaustible resource.
[00:26:40] Speaker D: So exhaustful.
[00:26:41] Speaker C: Right.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: Like, you can fill up that tank and you can power through, but eventually that tank hits empty and you just run out of willpower.
[00:26:50] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:26:51] Speaker B: But I love contrasting that. So I think you know this, but we're foster and adoptive parents.
[00:26:57] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:26:58] Speaker B: And there's a term they use in the foster community where they say, love doesn't divide, it multiplies.
[00:27:05] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:27:06] Speaker B: And I think it's a really cool contrast of just going the reality of the way God has built us, our willpower will run out.
But that's not how humans experience love. That's an inexhaustible resource. When we receive that, it multiplies in us and pours out of us.
[00:27:24] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:27:24] Speaker D: It's meant to be expansive.
[00:27:26] Speaker B: Yes. Yes.
What a beautiful image. What I love about the way you kind of flipped, I mean, because I think I've almost my whole life heard the Good Samaritan parable preached in exactly that way that you described at first of. It's a morality parable.
[00:27:43] Speaker C: Right.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: Like, be like the Good Samaritan.
[00:27:45] Speaker A: And there is even truth to that.
[00:27:47] Speaker B: That we should love and help people who are in need.
But to start with that identity piece of being the one in need who received from Christ, oh, my goodness, it's really powerful.
And it speaks to this idea to me of. I think the core of why this critique of Christianity comes about is because the Christian message is a message of grace to sinners.
[00:28:11] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: It's a message of unconditional love and forgiveness to those who aren't good enough.
[00:28:19] Speaker D: You know, that is who the gospel is for.
[00:28:23] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:28:23] Speaker D: People who know they're broken, that they cannot fix themselves, people who feel like they've failed. That's who the gospel is. Most.
[00:28:32] Speaker B: For Jesus starts his public ministry in the Sermon on the Mount by saying, blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
[00:28:41] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:28:42] Speaker B: And I love that phrase because in my tradition at least, we try and I think hyper spiritualize that idea of poverty of spirit and make it into this.
Oh, well, you're someone who lives with the kind of humility where you realize. And it's like, no, no, no, no. I'm pretty sure what Jesus is saying here is blessed are the people who are really bad at their spirituality.
They're poor at it, they're bad at it.
[00:29:04] Speaker D: We're like, I don't know what I'm doing. I can't do it. I don't want to read my Bible. I don't want to go to church.
[00:29:11] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:29:11] Speaker A: And these are the ones who Jesus.
[00:29:13] Speaker B: Says, yours is the kingdom of heaven. And I think when you look at the gospel or look at Jesus, the way he presents the gospel message to us, you kind of step back and go, oh, man, I should assume the church will be full of sinners.
That's the people Christ is calling to himself.
[00:29:31] Speaker D: Yes, yes, we are a bunch of misfits.
[00:29:35] Speaker B: But it still, it leaves us in a place of tension.
[00:29:39] Speaker C: Right.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: Because now all of a sudden, the Christian community is, yes, a place for healing hurt, but it's also really obviously going to be a place for perpetrating hurt.
[00:29:50] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:29:50] Speaker B: Because we're filling up our space in our homes and creating spiritual intimacy with the people who are not good at this, who are struggling and hurting.
That leaves a spiritual seeker in a weird place of trying to actually connect to community, you know?
[00:30:09] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:30:10] Speaker D: I think that's where the burden falls so heavily on the shepherds of the church as we create the culture of community to make it a space, space where people can be open and honest, where we make space for the spirit to work.
I think if it were just up to a whole bunch of people who are struggling thrown together in a room, yes, we are. We're in trouble.
But if the spirit shows up too, that's a whole different ball game.
[00:30:43] Speaker B: Well, so that's a good transition point.
Think of the person who's listening to this, who is, you know, part of what we're aiming at with this is someone who wants to have faith at the core of their person.
That's kind of who we're aiming these discussions at.
Doubt and struggle is a normative part of the life of faith. But for someone who wants to have faith deeply at their core, and they're looking at the Idea or the reality of Christian community going, I want to be a part of this, but I am legitimately hesitant because of what I've seen and what I've heard and even maybe what I've experienced.
So what do you suppose are some of the dynamics or signs that lead to unhealthy and damaging Christian environments? And how can someone. Like, what should someone be on the lookout for? What are the red flags for this person who wants to connect to a faith community but is concerned about this kind of destructive spiritual environment?
[00:31:45] Speaker D: Yeah, you know, like, I think about what often draws people to specific churches. Often it's to.
Sometimes to a personality, to maybe the pastor and how he delivers his messages or to the way they lead worship, to the presentation. These are all external things.
Really, what you're looking for is a community of believers who know how to listen to each other, to try to understand each other's experience, a place of humility, to recognize. I still have a lot to learn, and I'm sure that I might get this wrong.
I think when you can. When you start sitting with people and you feel that safety, you can then open up a little bit more. I think that's the kind of church culture you want to look for. For.
[00:32:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:38] Speaker B: Looking for a place where there is safety, a place where there's humility.
And so the flip side to that is if you're talking about red flags, like, if that's lacking.
[00:32:50] Speaker C: Right.
[00:32:50] Speaker B: If you're stepping into an environment and you go, okay, I see a lot of performing and pretending here. A lot of that plastic church face.
[00:32:57] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: There's probably not a lot of safety and humility here.
[00:33:02] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:33:02] Speaker D: And if they're willing to listen to your stuff but not share their own.
I think if there's. If a pastor can model transparency, that's a huge thing that I think should be modeled within the church leaders should be the first ones to say, like, I am really struggling in this area of my life to open up that conversation.
It's just so difficult to unpack because each person who's experienced spiritual harm has experienced it in specific ways. So I even think of friends who have been told, like, just read the Bible or just do this or just do that.
I think there's. It's so difficult to know, like, how can I help you find the best place if it's just focused on what you do? I think that's not quite enough, really. The gospel should be breathtaking, taking where you just. Where you catch glimpses of how big and beautiful the Savior is. So that you fall in love with him and want to press in closer to him, and then that relationship can help transform you and open you up to other people in the community.
[00:34:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: What I hear you saying in this, a couple different things that I want to kind of just bring together and maybe try and simplify for that listener who's thinking through what it looks like to seek out a church family.
I hear you, Karen, putting an emphasis on the leadership.
And there's an interesting tension there.
[00:34:30] Speaker C: Right.
[00:34:30] Speaker B: Because we're talking about a church where there is strong leadership that is seeking to love and protect and shepherd the church.
And yet simultaneously, that strong leadership needs to be defined and shown with humility and transparency and accountability.
[00:34:48] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:34:49] Speaker B: Is that a good way to say that?
[00:34:50] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:34:50] Speaker D: I think that's.
[00:34:51] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:34:51] Speaker D: You're spot on.
[00:34:52] Speaker B: I love that idea of. I mean, it's a really concrete way to look for that. Is that pastor confessional.
[00:34:59] Speaker A: I, as a pastor, like, on that.
[00:35:00] Speaker B: Side of what we're talking about, I have felt that temptation before when you're handling a text or you're preparing a sermon and you realize, like, this is way more in my kitchen than I realized it was.
It can be a really big temptation for the pastor to give these. What I'm going to just say bluntly, just fake confessions for the purpose of sermon illustrations. This text is talking about anger.
[00:35:25] Speaker A: Oh, well, you know, I've been known to get angry when I drive.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: I can be bad in traffic. And it's like, bro, that's not what you need to confess. You blew up on your kids for the last three days in a row because you're stressed out at work. That's your anger issue, you know?
[00:35:38] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:35:39] Speaker B: And seeing leaders who have the humility to just say that, hey, man, you are not above this. You are a human being.
[00:35:47] Speaker E: We are.
[00:35:47] Speaker A: And you get to the end of.
[00:35:49] Speaker B: Your rope and blow up.
[00:35:50] Speaker E: Yep. Yes.
[00:35:51] Speaker D: So true. And often when women come to me, actually, I will often say, hey, listen, this is my story too.
I know this is hard.
The reason I'm here is because I know the Savior is bigger. He has shown himself to be bigger and far more beautiful.
And really, it's only because of this experience that I have come to understand what it means to have a savior. Because if you can do everything on your own, you can do Christianity, self effort. You don't need a savior, then the gospel will make no sense to you.
[00:36:28] Speaker B: Oh, that's beautiful. That's another just perfect transition, though, because what I'm hearing in the whole of your story in your ministry, Karen, is just this beautiful reminder that the gospel is a gospel of hope and healing.
[00:36:43] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:36:44] Speaker B: And so give me some of your thoughts.
How do you think, knowing all its failures, how can a healthy Christian church actually be a place of hope and healing, especially for those who've been hurt in Christian community?
[00:37:03] Speaker D: That's such a good question.
And I think of our busy culture right now, with so many things going on, running kids to this and that activity, it's so difficult to plug ourselves into a space and actually settle into face to face community.
But I think a church that makes space and prioritizes community, and not just, pardon this term, but like, not just country club community. Yeah, you're socializing over donuts and golf, but a place where people can share honestly what the Savior has saved them from and also what you're struggling with now and praying for each other and not trying to fix it, and so feeling that experience with each other. And I think that is what my hope is for healing community.
[00:38:01] Speaker B: This was several years ago, but Sean Maney, the director of First Light, did some training for my church right around the time we planted. He came in and met with some of our leaders. And we were talking about how some facets and dynamics of group therapy apply really well to church, small groups and church community. And I think there was a book he was working through with it. It had like colored pencils on the.
[00:38:29] Speaker D: COVID of it, how to Make Small groups Work.
[00:38:33] Speaker B: Or I think it was that one. Yeah.
And there was this piece we put on the board that we still use today. We called it the Community Equation, which was gospel plus safety plus time equals Christian community.
[00:38:48] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:38:49] Speaker B: When we have the actual gospel of Jesus, which is grace for sinners and forgiveness of sins. And we have it in a context of safety, where you are invited to come exactly as you are, with all your baggage, without judgment. And you do that long enough, you just keep doing that, you will eventually end in a place where you have biblical Christian community.
[00:39:14] Speaker E: Yes, I can see.
[00:39:16] Speaker D: I believe that is what we are striving for here at First Light.
[00:39:20] Speaker B: Yeah, there's this in the fostering community.
We. We talk a lot about attachment issues with children who've gone through trauma.
And there's a lady by the name of Karen Purvis who did a lot of research from a Christian perspective, but academic research into how attachment issues affect children of trauma and how we can actually come up with ways to bring healing to that.
And one of the things that I think about from her work that applies not just to foster ministry but in my experience, to every facet of the Christian life is just this fact of going.
The cure for broken attachment for kids of trauma is attachment. The research tends to bear out that no matter how horrific of an environment a kid might have been in, when you put them in an environment with loving, safe parents who actually do the hard work of attaching that, it can actually legitimately heal. And we're talking about, I mean, you know, this, but like, trauma has physical effects on brain development, right?
[00:40:25] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:40:25] Speaker B: And yet that stuff can reverse in the context of safe loving, secure attachment.
[00:40:30] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:40:31] Speaker B: And I think there's a real gospel application there of just going, listen, we can experience some horrific wounds in the context of faith community.
And yet genuine biblical community is the cure.
When we actually experience that Jesus connection, it really can rebuild what sin is torn down.
[00:40:53] Speaker E: Yes, yes, I agree with that.
[00:40:56] Speaker D: I think sometimes the tendency is like, well, I can't go there. I'm just gonna do Christianity on my own.
Yeah, but that doesn't actually provide the healing from the hurt.
[00:41:08] Speaker B: No.
[00:41:08] Speaker D: And to seek healing from other human beings does require risk, because that's where you experience the hurt.
But it's in taking that risk that there's opportunity to change what's happening inside.
[00:41:26] Speaker B: In one of our previous discussions, I was talking to Mike Bird, who is a church Planner in north St. Louis City, and he used this example that's a little silly for how serious of a thing we're talking about, but I actually think it's really helpful is he says, if you. If you were craving ice cream and you went to McDonald's to go through the drive through and the ice cream machine was broken, you wouldn't quit eating ice cream.
[00:41:53] Speaker D: Right.
[00:41:54] Speaker B: You would go somewhere else with the working ice cream machine.
[00:41:58] Speaker D: Yes, hopefully. Ted Drews.
[00:42:00] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
I'm out in the county. So it's Fritz's or die out here.
[00:42:06] Speaker D: Yes, that's right.
[00:42:08] Speaker B: But that little bit of St. Louis culture in there for everyone.
[00:42:12] Speaker E: Yes, yes.
[00:42:13] Speaker B: But I think there's something.
[00:42:16] Speaker A: You just reminded me of that in.
[00:42:17] Speaker B: What you were saying, because it's so easy when we get burned, especially in the intimacy and context of faith family, to just go, well, forget this.
I'm not doing that anymore. And either totally turn inward or just walk away from any kind of faith community.
But, man, that's just not going to lead to the actual healing that your heart's longing for.
[00:42:40] Speaker D: Right?
[00:42:41] Speaker E: No.
[00:42:42] Speaker D: Yes, I agree.
[00:42:45] Speaker A: Well, maybe.
[00:42:45] Speaker B: Let me land out with this, Karen. And we're kind of dancing around this already. And so maybe I'M just asking you to draw some of this stuff together. But if you were to imagine that listener who has been deeply wounded by Christians, someone who's wrestling with this kind of hypocrisy they see within Christianity, what's some advice you would give them to navigate that pain and not actually abandon their faith entirely?
[00:43:16] Speaker D: Sam, you know, like, this question brings tears to my eyes because I have faces in my mind, and I often wondered, like, what can I say that might.
That might convince you to give Christianity a second chance? But really, you know, it's not giving Christianity a second chance. It's encountering the Savior for who he really is. Because so much of the hurt, I would say all of the hurt we experience in the church does not represent who our Savior is.
And when I, in my community of women who are struggling with all the behaviors that their husband has been engaging in, I tell them, you know, Jesus is the bridegroom you've always longed for.
He is faithful. He is never going to let you down.
And so coming back to Jesus, and I realize this path is going to be a bit rocky. Different things are going to feel triggering.
The Word of God is meant to be healing, but people have weaponized the Word of God in the past, so sometimes that can feel hard. It feels like we're so restricted and it's hard to find our way back. But if somehow you can find your way back to the beauty of our Savior and let that kind of set the tone and help you find a good community, I think that's where I would point people.
[00:44:49] Speaker B: I love that, Karen. And you even spoke into something. I'm thinking of a very specific, just pastoral care case I dealt with where there was physical abuse in a marriage that was pretty horrific and the husband would quote scripture perpetrating, and it did just create this, oh, such a brutal, deep wound for this woman who loved the Lord and was trying really hard to rebuild her faith and couldn't hardly open her Bible.
[00:45:27] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:45:28] Speaker B: But just to think about the fact that Christ says, as the church, that we are his hands and feet, and that even, even in a context of that kind of wounding, there is something about being with brothers and sisters in safety that really can heal, can move people toward healing.
[00:45:49] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:45:49] Speaker D: And I think I also want to add, I think this should not be, again, something that we have to try harder at.
[00:45:59] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:46:00] Speaker D: I think that it's the Savior's job to pursue us.
And I. And if we can, if we just turn toward him or have the heart that's like, I don't know how I can do this. I don't even know how to try.
But if you want me, come find me.
I think he's always, since the beginning of time in the Garden of Eden, he was the God who sought out his lost children. And he still delights to do that today.
And so don't worry if you want to turn back to him. If you want his help, he is more than willing to come find you.
[00:46:42] Speaker C: Oh, Amen.
[00:46:45] Speaker B: I can't think of a better way to land out this conversation than that beautiful truth.
He is there waiting.
[00:46:54] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:46:56] Speaker B: Karen, thank you so much. Thank you for hanging out. This has been. I'm sitting here crying in front of my computer. This has been a really challenging and encouraging conversation. I really appreciate your time.
[00:47:07] Speaker D: Oh, Sam, it's been such an honor. Thanks for having me.
[00:47:11] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:47:17] Speaker F: The ones that we love.
Yes, Hallelujah. They are not enough.
Hallelujah. You have saved us from the ones that we love.
Hallelujah. They are not enough.
[00:47:41] Speaker B: Man, what a powerful conversation.
[00:47:44] Speaker A: I hope that was as encouraging and.
[00:47:47] Speaker B: Challenging for you as it was for me.
[00:47:50] Speaker A: As we end out, let me give a quick shout out again to our sponsor, Emmanuel Fellowship church in Ellisville, Missouri. You can always check them out online.
Emanuelfellowshipstl.org Also, a reminder of my invitation to you. If you're in the St. Louis area and you'd like to sit with someone in person and process and work through your own doubts, please reach out to me hellofcstl.com and we can schedule a.
[00:48:17] Speaker B: Time to grab a coffee and talk.
[00:48:19] Speaker A: About the same sort of things we're talking about in this podcast. A big thank you to Travis Teal page for the use of our theme song family. You can find him on all the major streaming platforms, Travis Tealpage and the Capitol Club. Okay, I think that's all for now.
[00:48:33] Speaker B: We'll see you guys again real soon.
[00:48:39] Speaker F: The blood's washed clean, but the biggest step of faith I've taken is saying I don't believe.
Well, I'm sorry to say I'm back, but I've got some questions for you.
If it weren't for that girl, I'd be nowhere near you.
